Mon 19 Jan 2009
WOW for week of 1/18/09 and 1/25/09
Posted by John Little under Uncategorized
This workout occurred after 6 days rest. I have finally pulled back to Sunday for my weekly workout, as UE is filling up quick and it is hard to get into my own place…a good problem to have.
Normally, I do a 3 way rotating split. However, after a few rounds I will do a two-way split by simply adding leg press to the upper body portions of my three way split. If I am getting enough rest (not working in the ER too much), I really enjoy the metabolic effect of including the leg press. Here is what I did.
Med X Leg Press: upright seat, 3 holes pinned out: 604/2:00, Overhead Press: seat posn 6, 3 holes pinned out- 340/1:40 rest 10 secs, 1 RP, Nautilus Plate load bicep with SuperSlow retrofit 60/1:30 plus 1RP, Tricep pushdown on SS pulldown stage reps 70/mid point to contracted to fail, 40/stretch to midpoint to fail, formulator wrist flex 20/1:30, wrist ext 10/1:20
Elapsed Time=10:50. Approx total TUL=9:35. Average rest between exercises=12 seconds.
Today, I feel pleasantly sore. Not overly tired or hammered.
Thanks to all WOW posters. Everyone has a slightly different approach, but it is very illustrative for visitors to this sight to say the numerous ways that great results can be produced with intense, brief, time-efficient workouts. Lets start posting some video WOW’s soon
Doug McGuff
28 Responses to “ WOW for week of 1/18/09 and 1/25/09 ”
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Just finished:
Weighted chin up
body weight chin up
Seated dip
Hammer H-Squat
Nautilus pullover
We need some female WOW posts. I will therefore post my wife Wendy’s workout. 1/18/09. Last workout 21 days prior. Normal frequency is once every 14 days. Interestingly, with the extra week off she added about 5-12 seconds to all her TUL’s. Weights are selected for failure in about 2 mins (except overhead press failure in about 1:30-1:45).
MedX Chest Press
SS Pulldown
Overhead Press
Leg Press
Abs
Wendy finds that an every 7 day frequency works fine in terms of strength progression, but too many days of the week are spent feeling “below the baseline”. At age 44 she weighs 108 pounds (she weighed 105 on our wedding day at age 20). I can assure you the extra 3 pounds is not fat. Wendy feels the key to maintaining body composition is NO high fructose corn syrup and very limited refined carbs (a small chocolate treat daily).
Come ladies, post your WOW.
Doug McGuff
Here’s what I took my wife through on Sunday:
1.deadlift
2.Nautilus pullover
3.Nautilus leverage chest press(close grip handles)
4.barbell curl
5.overhead press
She’s 45,5′4″ and 122 lbs
Dr. McGuff,
Thank you for taking comments. I also posted this on Drew Baye’s site.
Please help me out on Time Under Load.
On pg. 56 it is printed “Optimally, we’re looking at forty-five to ninety seconds for a particular set of exercises as the desired time frame…”. On pg. 86 a set of 6 reps averaging 10 seconds up and 10 seconds down is added up to a minute and thirty seconds and a minute and forty seconds. Six reps. at 20 seconds a rep. is two minutes. Pages 89 to 90 describe a set and reads “This whole process occurred over the span of roughly two minutes.” On pg. 91 it is written “..performing the exercise too long (more than ninety seconds)…”. The posted times on this site are almost all over ninety seconds.
Is it correct to say that if I perform an exercise that takes 20 seconds per rep. that at 45 seconds only two reps will have been done, at 90 seconds only 4.5? Should the time under load be longer?
Your book will allow all high intensity advocates to speak more intellegently on the subject, I would like to be definitive on my understanding of the above.
Thank you very much for your consideration.
Jeff,
I too would like to be definative in my understanding of the issue, but I honestly don’t know.
At a 10/10 cadence the time to concentric failure under a meaningful resistance can be between 60 seconds and 2 minutes. At a faster cadence (say, 3/3) the same resistance will result in a time to failure of 40-60 seconds. Get an extra week or two of recovery and you may add 30-40 seconds to your TUL. Despite a more continuous load, the 10/10 takes longer. This fact is a huge topic of argument amongst HIT theorists, and nobody knows the answer.
The real fact is this: if we were able to settle this argument amongst the different factions, it probably would not add a pound of muscle or 1/4″ to anyone that has spent countless hours arguing about it on the internet. This is why the broad range in the book, and the seeming contradictions. Different load/cadence/TUL’s may work for different individuals and even in different muscle groups within the same individual.
Bottom line: work ferociously hard, observe good form and don’t injure yourself, rest, recover, and eat a natural hunter-gatherer diet. Pay attention to your responses and preferences and adjust as needed.
When you think about it, you probably knew the answer all along….or were you just testing me?
Thanks,
Doug McGuff
Thank you Dr. McGuff,
No sir, I was not testing you. It is difficult to know how a meesage you leave is coming across. I tried to be polite, and hoped you would not take it any other way, except as a question being asked in earnest.
When I read “Optimally…” I was going to do whatever I could to stay in that forty-five to ninety second range. While I do time my reps. I have always used the number of reps. as my guide, and am excited about using time under load.
Thank you for the time you took to read my question and the detailed answer you provided.
Sincerely,
Jeff
I wish I had a Formulator:(
Thanks for all your work Dr.McGuff.
Regards,
Al
Jeff,
I need to be more careful how I post. The “testing me” comment was a joke. I know you did not mean any disrespect. My wife just had to remind me that an understanding of my sense of humor is not a given.
Thanks for your question.
Doug McGuff
As an ardent Concept2 rower, as well as a committed HIT person, and reading some of the literature on HIIT (high intensity interval training), since my ankle has recovered sufficiently from an errant step off the front porch, I hopped on the C2 yesterday to make my first attempt at a Tabata-like protocol. I did the following:
I set up 100 meters x30″ Rest (I’m 71 in 4 months, so I thought I’d give myself a break just two days out from my workout with John Wood, and got the following:
1. 1:50.2/500 42s/m 142HR
2. 1:49.8/500 44s/m 149HR
3. 1:44.4/500 46s/m 153HR
4. 2:00.2/500 40s/m 159HR
60″ Rest
5. 2:05.4/500 38s/m 163HR
I warmed up for 5 minutes on a “slow as you go” and I was absolutely tanked on #4. After #5, I was toast in my upper body, though legs felt like I could have gone on, and I can at times on intervals of longer distances w/ more rest work to HR values in the mid 160’s. I expect that I was way too much arms and way too little legs, and way too quick on #3, not to mention that I had done a MedX compound row on Sunday.
This AM I’m feeling great!! BTW, I’m doing this NOT to start a controversy over doing other kinds of exercise, but rather simply to be an experiment of one with respect to whether or not such work can selectively lower BF% while sparing lean muscle.
tony
Dr. Semone,
For those who have not done the Concept 2 thing, it can be a metabolic whipping. The airfan displaces air proportional to your effort, so intensity can really escalate.
I know you are not trying to start controversy about extra exercise. HIT can provide you with a Ferrari body, and I know it is unrealistic to give people a Ferrari and tell them to drive in a school zone. I myself returned to BMX racing at ages 38-43, but quit due to time commitment issues (and 2 broken bones). Later, I purchased a Concept 2 to compete in the 500m event. I got my time as low as 1:31 which was in the top 100 worldwide for my age group. I have since laid off after tweaking my back. Nothing serious, but Arthur Jones once told me, “it won’t matter how big your arms are or how much you can bench if your back is bad”.
Keep us posted on your experiment.
Doug McGuff
Doug,
Congrats on your book!
In an earlier post you said:
“At a 10/10 cadence the time to concentric failure under a meaningful resistance can be between 60 seconds and 2 minutes. At a faster cadence (say, 3/3) the same resistance will result in a time to failure of 40-60 seconds. Get an extra week or two of recovery and you may add 30-40 seconds to your TUL. Despite a more continuous load, the 10/10 takes longer. This fact is a huge topic of argument amongst HIT theorists, and nobody knows the answer.”
First, I’m glad to see you mention this fact. However, you seem not to realize the implications of it. If the above is true — and it is — then faster cadences result in a faster rate of fatigue and a more efficient rate of inroad than slower reps/cadences. Why then do you continue to claim that slow reps cause more efficient inroading?
Second, the answer to the above phenomenon is known. There are several aspects. 1) The faster cadence results in a faster rate of muscle contraction — which expends energy at a faster rate. 2) The faster cadence results in more contractions and more actin/myosin crossbridging (grab/release, grab/release, etc.) per unit of time, resulting in greater energy expenditure. 3) According to AJ, the faster movement speed results in more intramuscular friction. There are probably other physiological factors as well.
Another issue is this: If one is capable of moving said resistance in a 3/3 cadence, but instead “chooses” to move it in a 10/10 cadence, then that person is “holding back” their effort and as a result not recruiting all available motor units and fibers. Hence, the work is easier and less fatiguing and can be carried on longer. BTW, this concept alone is a major flaw with any protocol that prescribes “intentionally” slow cadence (such as SS).
To fail in the same time frame with slower cadences as with faster cadences, the weight load must be made heavier than that used with the faster cadence. Ideally the load should be so heavy that moving it fast is not an option. This type of load will require a much higher effort and a higher level of motor unit/fiber recruitment and result in a quicker more efficient inroad.
Tim Ryan
The thing to test would be to do 2 sets and see which of the first sets - the slow set to failure with the heavier weight, or the fast set to failure with the lighter weight resulted in a shorter second set.
Both sets would need to terminate in roughly the same time.
I am convinced however, making the weight lighter than the fast rep set to purposefully slow a rep and have the set wear on longer, is a step in the less muscle built direction.
I doubt that I am the only one to have failed to understand the last two posts and their implications. Back to the old slow versus fast reps then..and no definitive answer.Except that a ’subset’(?) does not grow muscle on slow training. That’s me then.
Tim and Fred,
Thanks for your insights on this intriguing topic. Leo, thanks for reminding us technophiles to “keep a leash on it”. Non-technophiles can feel free to skip this answer.
I fully admit that I don’t realize the full implications of these observations. At least I try not to take my presumed knowledge too seriously.
The answers to the above phenomenon are known as you describe them, but some of my observations don’t jive with this knowledge. I have conducted a self-experiment using powerpins which self-eject from the weight stack when you unload. If I use 400lb on the chest press to failure and then immediately pop the power pin and go to failure at 200lb, the time to failure after a Slow cadence is much shorter, than it is after a faster (3/3) cadence (the second set being done at a standardized 5/5 cadence). This seems to indicate a deeper level of fatigue after a slow cadence set even if the rate of inroading was slower. If intensity truly did =inroad/time, then my experiment should have panned out in the opposite direction.
Another issue, if the faster cadence, by virtue of having more reps, allows more opportunities actin/myosin cross-bridging (grab-release) then the slower cadence with truly heavy weight and thus fewer reps allows fewer opportunities for this cross-bridging to occur…and this is what some are touting as a benefit of faster cadence. The flip-side of this is that the slower cadence allows for increased contact time of actin-myosin cross bridges which results in higher tension levels that others think is an important component of the stimulus.
Lastly, the argument of making the load so heavy that “fast is not an option” appeals to my intellect as well. Using a resistance that “requires” a 5-10 second cadence intellectually appeals. However, if you watch video of world-record power lifts (where a 2nd rep is clearly not even possible) the speed of that single rep is usually around 3-5 seconds. This would suggest that the same “holding back” that occurs with slow cadence at lighter weights may be occurring with heavier weights. Ryan Hall points out that maximal motor unit recruitment occurs at loads that are quite modest (30-60% 1RM) and occur early in a set, the rest of what occurs is rate-coding and firing frequency.
Finally, what is not known, and has never been proven is that “inroad” is actually THE (or even “a”) stimulus for muscle growth. I suspect the stimulus is multifactorial and may have a lot more to do with creating a particular hormonal/metabolic environment (which would explain why numerous protocols can work). I like inroad because it may be a downstream marker that we can measure that may be indicative of the requisite factors (load, fatigue, metabolic byproducts) which trigger this hormonal environment, NOT because I think it is the key stimulus. The truth may be that we are all right, but are either emphasizing different components of a multi-factorial stimulus, or expressing preferences based on genetic variation discussed in Chapter 8.
Ultimately, post #5 above to Jeff summarizes my feelings on this issue and what the truly important factors are.
If you would like to explore this topic in more depth, I would suggest submitting a formal article than be posted as a technical piece under the articles section of this website. We would also like you to post an essay and contact info for our recommended trainers section.
Also, please post your workouts if you are so inclined.
Thanks for your input and insights.
Doug McGuff
Workout on 1/20/09:
Nautilus pullover
260#
0:41 secs
MedX torso arm (palms towards ears)
504#
0:45
Nautilus 10 deg. chest
212#
0:50
MedX dip
404#
0:46
MedX lateral raise
134#
0:48
MedX knee flex
310#
1:00
MedX knee ext
310#
1:02
This is a VERY short workout for me. I usually do at least 10 exercises usually more like 12-15.
Note: I took a 2 week layoff for the xmas holiday and before I left I had one of if not the best body comp readings ever. While away I did not touch a weight.
Upon my return my bioimpedance machine showed a loss of 5 pounds of lean mass and a gain of 2 pounds of fat mass.
On Jan 5th I worked out for the first time in 18 days. I did 4 workouts in 15 days and regained exactly what I lost. I lost the fat as well.
I am going to up the frequency to 3X a week training for 2 weeks and see if I can best my best. If I over train, the machine won’t lie since it did not lie to me when I returned from vacation.
Doug,
The answer to the dilemma regarding your power lifter example performing a max lift in 3 - 5 seconds lies in the equipment. With good machines and correctly designed cams that match very well to the muscle’s strength curve, it’s quite possible to train with a heavy load that one cannot move faster than about a 5 second postive excursion, yet still achieve enough reps and TUL.
Tim
Experiment of one continues on the C2. I accomplished 6×100 meters today w/ 30″R interval. Each 100m active interval averaged 22.7″ at an avg pace/500m of 1:53.5 at an avg s/m of 41 and mean HR of 142. That’s two more distance intervals than Tuesday. Goal for next week is 8 distance intervals on Tuesday, and 10 distance intervals on Thursday.
I have a C routine with John Wood this coming Sunday (prior to which I will have plate-loaded for 8 clients whom I’ll be training tomorrow and Saturday. That routine will consist of a Nitro Leg Press, Nitro rear deltoid, Nitro pec fly, Lifefitness upright row, MedX SS modified lower back and MedX abs, all except lower back done 2″P/10″neg/10″Rest.
Great site, challenging contributions. Oh, Fred, you, or one of your trainers, may well have gotten to train my business partner today
thanks again, Dr. McGuff,
tony
Good stuff. It is my guess that you could open a productive and prolific forum - but you probably know better than to engage in such a risky venture.
Dr. McGuff,
At some point could you address the topic of post-workout nutrition. Fred Hahn, who I know you are familiar with, recently posted that he attributes part of his progress to his post-workout shake. “After every workout I immediately drink a shake that has 40 gms of protein, 20 gms carbs, in 20 oz of water. I never miss it. So this may allow for very quick recovery and minimize catabolism.”
On the other hand Art DeVany doesn’t put a lot of stock in post workout nutrition. I’d like to hear your opinion on the topic.
Thanks,
David
No such thing as a free lunch
C Routine today as described in a previous post (although I had in error named the leg press machine as Nitro, when in fact it is 2ST). Anyways, good progress on all exercises except 2ST. I was scheduled for 335# and at the go signal I literally could not budge the floor plate. John dropped it by 5# and with an assist I got one rep of the 2/10/10 cycle, attempted again and w/o assist I was unable to do the positive. John had to drop the weights to 290 before I could accomplish addition repetitions.
Our hypothesis to account for this deficient performance went straight away to the Tabata workout I did on Thursday last in which I specifically emphasized driving with my legs which, when done at about 40 strokes per miinute with a drag setting of 5. While it didn’t feel it in the aftermath, it’s pretty clear that my legs did not recover enough to promote the leg press effort today
:(
Our plan is to drop the x2 per week HIT C2 rowi to x1 per week and move that one effort to Wednesday to see what the outcome is on leg press.
tony
Todays workout
MedX front grip pulldown
Nautilus Low Back
Medx Shoulder Press - ultimate rep
Nautilus Leg Curl - Ultimate rep
MedX avenger degree chest - ultimate rep
Total time 11 minutes.
Different week, but here is my workout today. I usually do a two-way split spaced apart about once every 10 days (basiclly each muscle group gets hit once every 3 weeks). One week I train legs, neck, and shoulders, the next I train back, chest, biceps, triceps.
Today was legs, neck and shoulders:
Lateral Raise
Leg Curl
Leg Extension
Shrugs on Nautilus multi-exercise
Hip Abduction
Hip Adduction
I expanded this “WOW” to include a 2 week period because I did not want to displace the two most recent posts by John (which are fantastic).
This workout was done on Sunday 1/25/09 in the evening after a brutal ER day shift. I am now rotating back to a 3 way split and today was legs/abs/lumbar.
MedX leg press (pinned out 3 holes, seat position 2 764/1:45, MedX Ab, pinned at zero holes 70/2:05, Lumbar Extension- done with SSSystems pulldown with attempt to hold hips stable and strong lumbar arch (as in SS demo video) 140/1:40, calf on MedX leg press, zero holes entire stack/2:00.
ET: 8min39sec. Total TUL=7min30sec total time between movements=129secs or 19.75 seconds between each movement on average.
Next couple days more fatigued than usual, but I blame 2 brutal ER shifts for consuming some recovery resources. I wish I had a BodPod to actually see where I am in the recovery process…maybe I would space things out more. For now keeping on Sundays works best schedule wise.
No posting for my wife, as she is dedicated to an every 2 week frequency
Doug
Good morning Dr. McGuff and other readers,
Thanks for indulging me another question on TUL.
When using repetitions as a guage, I would select a weight that allowed me to perform 6 reps., I would then try to do as many as I could ( maintaining proper form, timing etc.).
If I hit 10 reps. (or more, I would not stop at 10 if I could keep going) this was the indicator that next time the weight should be made heavier.
While I would make a note of the time of a static contraction, count of negatives or rest pause reps. done at the end of a set., this method did not record the time under the load when, say, I was able to lower the weight but not press back out, the time spent under the load trying to get the weight to move one more time, or the 3-5 seconds spent in the contracted position during a set. Timing a set would cover the above.
So, realizing that a set can cover anywhere from 45 seconds to almost 3 minutes how would you recomend a beginer to this type of measurement select a starting weight (again with reps it was a weight I could handle for 6 reps.) and a time limit reached were the weight is increased (10, or above was the indicator with reps.) How do exercises that allow for a hold in the contracted position figure into this? (This is not a question of rep. speed versus amount of reps. my rep speed is already relatively slow at 6-8 seconds positive and 6-8 seconds negative depending on the exercise and I am very comfortable and in control at these speeds.)
Please treat this question as if I was doing the Big Five for the very first time.
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Jeff,
SWAG (scientific wild a– guess). The target TUL range depends somewhat on the cadence that you have decided to use (see post #14). In your case you have not stated your cadence, but given your rep range I would guess you are using about a 4/4 cadence. Nonetheless, run a stopwatch on the midpoint of your rep range (8) and you will have a rough target. Simply by eyeballing a subject at their first workout you simply make an educated guess at their starting weight and then record their TUL to failure. If it runs too long, bump the weight up accordingly, if they fall short lighten things up.
This is really no different than counting reps, except counting TUL gives you a “fine tune dial” that may give you earlier warning if overtraining is beginning to occur, or may actually show progress in added seconds, even though the rep count remains unchanged (which may give a false impression of stalled progress). Once a subject starts to fail repeatedly within a narrow TUL, then you may progress the weight fairly aggressively from one session to the next. That is, if you increase the weight 2.5 or 10 pounds the TUL at failure is likely to be very close.
Hope that helps.
Doug McGuff
Thank you very much.
My cadence is 6 to 8 seconds on the positive and 6 to 8 seconds on the negative depending on the range of the exercise. Squats take me 16 seconds to complete a rep,. Benchpress 13 seconds. So a set of 6 (my low end)Squats would take 96 seconds and a set of 10 (my high end) would take me over 160 seconds (my cadence gets slower as I near failure).
Exercise that have a hold when in the contracted position can take even longer than 160 seconds at the high end.
Your generosity is greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Jeff
Today’s workout
MedX Chest Press - ultimate rep - followed by a 50% reduction in weight and performed one normal rep to failure.
Avenger Compound Row - ultimate rep - followed by a 50% reduction in weight and performed one normal rep to failure.
Avenger Leg Press - ultimate rep - followed by a 50% reduction in weight and performed one rep to failure.
Total workout time 8 minutes followed by 15 minutes on the floor