Sun 10 Mar 2013
W.O.W.’s 3/1/13 and 3/7/13-ROBAT!
Posted by Doug McGuff under Uncategorized
I did the following WOW’s since my last posting. The first workout was done at UE under the supervision of Ed and Joe (our newest instructor). This was slightly higher volume than normal, but it did not result in ROBAT (run over by a truck) in the days that followed. The second workout was done at Fike gym. It represented quite a bit more volume than usual as I was well rested and having a good time experimenting. The result has been 3 days of massive ROBAT. I attribute this not only to the increased volume of the Fike workout, but the very stressful ER shifts that followed.
3/1/13 done at UE
MedX Chest Press
Nautilus Pullover with SS retrofits
MedX Chest Press (Jrep halves)
MedX Row with SS retrofits
Chest Press (top 1/3rd partials)
Calf Press on MedX Leg Press
3/7/13 Fike Gym
Dumbbell Lateral Raise- Jrep thirds
Dumbbell Bent Fly-Jrep thirds
Cybex Overhead Press-Jrep thirds
EZ barbell curl
EZ reverse curl
Tricep pressdown-Jrep halves
Dip
EZ barbell curl-Jrep thirds
Dumbbell wrist flex/extension
Dumbbell Shrug
Barbell Squats
This sort of workout requires me to have an ideal recovery situation, and this is what I anticipated. However, unanticipated events and some unusually tough shifts didn’t allow for ideal recovery. The truth is that the last workout may have produced ROBAT no matter what, but I wanted to push it a little to see if I could go up to the edge without going over. Well it didn’t work out and it has given me some time to reflect on ROBAT. I won’t drown you with PubMed references, but would like to discuss some things that I believe, but cannot prove.
1. I don’t think it is a CNS thing. I don’t think it is one thing at all. The body is just to complex and inter-related for this to be the case. I do think there are some CNS components to ROBAT. One of which is serotonin and noradrenaline depletion. This is due to depletion of neurotransmitter in the motor pathways and and the motor end-plate. Also, amino acid precursors for excitatory neurotransmitters are likely consumed by the workout and then shunted toward muscle tissue repair in the days that follow.
2. I think peripheral nervous system exhaustion is a big component, particularly at the motor end-plate. There is a reason Ken Hutchins described a subject after deep inroad “looking like a frog injected with strichnine”, both deep inroad and strichnine exhaust neurotransmitter at the motor end-plate. It probably takes some time for the necessary chemicals to re-accumulate at the presynaptic end plate. Neurotransmitter exhaustion likely correlates with mood depression for reasons discussed in #1 above. I find a strong correlation in myself with mood depression and use of deep inroad (continuing maximal effort once movement has stopped).
3. I have still not been able to experience the “flying under the radar” thing. Maybe its because I don’t really know what it is or if it exists. I can say that I came closest to understanding it on the RenEx pieces, as this was a really hard workout that produced minimal ROBAT (compared to what I expected). However, I am surprised Ken tolerates this term since he is such a fan of Robert Mitchell (the Strict Grammarian) who made fun of speech that used terminology from a glamourous and technical profession interchangeably with a less exciting one (i.e. school teachers borrowing terminology from air traffic controllers when they say “we are in a holding pattern”). I understand that trying to explain something esoteric to someone who has never experienced the thing you are describing must be very difficult. I do desire a better and more in depth explanation, as I still find I am more likely (not less likely) to experience ROBAT with SuperSlow/RenEx protocol than with a 4/4 or 5/5 cadence.
4. I think that a significant component of the exercise stimulus involves triggering inflammatory cytokines. Interleukins (particularly 6 and 15) and Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) are an integral component of the acute inflammatory response to high intensity exercise. I think that hammering too hard, just to make sure you’ve crossed the stimulus threshold, or too much outroading (form discrepancies used to achieve an external performance standards, instead of internal stimulus triggering) produces an overabundance of these inflammatory cytokines which contribute hugely to ROBAT. Most of these peak at about 48 hours, which is when I experience the worst elements of ROBAT.
5. I find that friction laden equipment contributes to the risk of ROBAT. Perhaps it is the struggle to overcome the friction that leads to outroading which leads to ROBAT. Perhaps it is something about the mismatch between muscular effort and the response of the equipment. No matter what, it seems real. I think this is a big component to RenEx equipment limiting my experience of ROBAT.
6. Finally, I think that ROBAT avoidance is multi-factorial. Volume and frequency must be limited, but can be expanded to the extent that you can avoid outroading, form discrepancies and friction-laden equipment. Also, attention to the recovery side with whole foods, good hydration, stress management and good sleep are vitally important.
Post your WOW’s and your thoughts on ROBAT

Blain,
sent
Josh,
Didn’t get it. It’s bcduesing@yahoo.com
WOW,
smith machine inclinepress
next generation pullover
seated row
OME calves
2st neck ext./flex.
abdominal
Did squeeze technique on the pullover,seated row and calves and it dramatic changes the feeling at the start of the next rep compared to how the previous rep felt up to the squeeze,even with my equipment. As far as I experience it (regarding equipment)if I start very gradually the first rep and focus on keeping the tension as equally as possible during the set I come as close as possible to a deep level of fatigue as fast as possible.Feels just great.
Just got the renex dvd’s in the mail(anyone else?)and I’m looking foreward to watch them the upcoming days.
ad
@ Jeff
Thanks for the explanation. I suspected it had something to do with how rapidly you could change the shape of a cam, but it is always nice to hear the reason from someone who has more familiarity with the engineering aspects.
@ Josh
Thanks! With a simple lever you don’t have many variables that can be manipulated to adjust the response curve, so the possible outcomes are pretty limited. That was why I was curious about what was possible with 4-bar linkages.
I did, while researching this, find something in some nautilus literature that I thought was interesting:
“The 4-bar linkage can be applied to machines as a mechanism that can generate a force curve output as a function of a force input. In other words, it acts like a cam. This is useful on multi- joint movements which have radical strength curves like those found on the Overhead Press and Vertical Chest. Positive cams cannot change the resistance curve rapidly enough on a compound movement machine, thus negative cams, at much greater expense, must be applied in order to attain the rapidly changing resistance curves. The Nautilus 4-BAR linkage system, as a function generator, provides for rapidly changing curves like the negative cam, but at much less expense and with high durability and low maintenance. (Used on 2ST VC, OHP, IP, BP, CR and NITRO VC, OHP, IP)
Does that duo squat machine uses something like this to produce the steep run up in load at the end of the movement?
Producing identical strength response curves on a compound machine, where the stroke length varies according to user size seems like a pretty challenging mechanical design problem, especially if you have a steep fall off at some point in the curve. I gather the best solution available at the moment is to shift the point of the fall off forward or backward relative to stroke position by altering the cam timing, and then just hope that the rest of the curve is sufficiently close?
Josh
A quick digression from equipment discussion.
I know that you worked up to prodigious weight in the conventional deadlift but I believe you no longer use this move as you have access to state of the art machine training.
If you were to use the dead lift , to use the terminology, what would be your now more experienced 2013 intent and what behaviour would you adopt to maximise positive response from this movement?
Does the Ren-Ex leg press have a cam? It doesn’t appear to from looking at the pictures online.
Craig,
In short the Nautilus ad is way off base…the subject requires an entire article to explain.
Joshua
David,
Yes, it does have a cam…there are no pictures of it online, I haven’t released it to the public yet.
You may be seeing the iLeg Ext/iLeg Curl…that machine is for TSC leg ext, leg curl and pre-workout “knee lubrication”…we will also be mounting a station for TSC Hip ABd and Adduction…all done on one station.
Joshua
Josh,
I too would be interested in hearing your response to Brian F regarding the deadlift. And would you treat the straight bar deadlift any differently than the hex bar deadlift?
Abe
@Ad
I am waiting for my DVD’s to come to Australia
Please don’t reveal the plot or whodunit, I want to watch for myself.
I found your experimentation with your routine interesting. Are you moving away from the big 5 to incorporate some isolation work in your regular training?
Fitman
Hi Pete,
Won’t reveal anything but… indeed watch and listen carefully.I wanted to see 3 of them yesterday so stayed up a bit longer as normally.Not the best approach because when one is tired he should go to sleep(missed a bit so have to watch the last one again),but no complains.Enjoy and apply the information/knowledge.
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Amy’s WOW:
Nautilus series III torso/arm
Nautilus series III bench press
Nautilus hip abduction
Nautilus 2ST low back
Nautilus super pullover
Nautilus overhead press
WOW:
Today at closing time:
30-30-30-19 chin up
-short rest-
Chin ups
Hammer leg press
Nautilus series III bench press
barbell bench press
WOW
- MedEx Row
- MedEx CP
- MedEx CP Flys
- MedEx LP
Doug was in with all three of us today to scrutinize our forms for any and all instances of outroading. Sometimes it’s easy to get a little “sloppy”. All I can say is intense!
Fortunately he gave us the opportunity to do the same for his workout…payback is hell!
Bench press
275 for 3 reps
Immediately followed by
225 for 8 reps
Felt fine afterward.
@Ed,
Lets knock the Fly off your WOW. The inroad was so great from the chest press you really couldn’t get a rep on the fly. Great job. Pure inroading!
Doug
Works for me
Ed
WOW today
All done SS 10/10 Thorough inroad technique on all (best theses machines allow) Kieser MedEx
chest press
seated row
shoulder press
Leg extension
Lumbar spine
Intense pump & local fatigue on trained muscles, after 30 mins recovered normal movement & brain function. I find the more I am trying to master the RenEx inroad technique the less outroading occurs, eliminating indiscretions to form and staying in the movement has profound effect, my trainer noted, my face was relaxed, composed and stoic, breathing was natural in line with intensity increase, this is a reflection of me entering ‘mind to muscle’ during the contraction.
Relaxed and read Syler Tanner’s blogs. I am limiting the amount of these blogs etc I read now, some of them are bordering religious fundamentalist thinking, Skyler keeps it short, sweet, real, informative and most importantly ‘retains a sense of humour’ Bravo Skyler.
Note on blogs, if you go to Chris Highcock’s blog Conditioning Research, he has posted an interesting paper on Mid Victorian Health in the UK
Pete
Damn it, spelling Skyler’s name gets me every time………apologies mate
@ Josh,
“In short the Nautilus ad is way off base…the subject requires an entire article to explain.”
I hope you will feel inspired to write something at some point…
@ Ad
“Won’t reveal anything but… indeed watch and listen carefully.”
I hope you won’t be too reticent on this subject. I’m curious about how much of the material is relevant or useful to those without access to good machinery. (I believe that is your situation?)
David,
sorry i just caught a mistake….i thought we were discussing Leg Ext….no, my leg press does not have a cam.
Josh
Ed,
love your workout….its my all time favorite….quick….hits damn near every muscle in the body….and brutual. Might be the greatest HIT workout routine ever.
Greg
Greg.
Thanks
It’s kinda my standard. I vary the order a bit but pretty much keep the same exercises.
I always find it interesting though that often times when I can work out with Doug, even though it’s the same machines…it doesn’t seem the same…make sense? He creates these nuances that seem to make it brutally different. It’s kinda neat to have variations on old themes.
Ed