Mon 25 Feb 2013
W.O.W. 2/24/13- Norm, Dot and John
Posted by Doug McGuff under Uncategorized
I did the following WOW yesterday at UE.
MedX Overhead Press
Nautilus Plate Load Bicep (SS retrofits)
Nautilus Plate Load Triceps (SS retrofits)
Formulator Flex/Ext
MedX Leg Press
Recently Ed and I requested a progress report from our friends and BBS followers up North (Norm and Dot Jones and their friend John Wickendon). What they sent us is a great reminder to really encourage those just starting out. Many times I worry that our esoteric discussions here may drive away rank beginners that may have just picked up BBS at the book store. If this is happening it would be a real tragedy, because the best and most life-changing results happen just from making the commitment to get started. After a few years, you can keep yourself interested in the finer derivatives, but the changes that occur early on are literally life-changing. Here is what they wrote:
BBS and Paleo Diet for Everyone
Introduction
Birthdays – especially major ones – provide pause for reflection and looking at the bigger picture. As I am just a few days from celebrating my 75th on March 5th I wish to share with you a most significant change which occurred some three and a half years ago: my introduction to the BBS exercise program and the paleo way of diet.
BBS Program
How did my wife and I get started? Quite simply, I was browsing in a local bookshop in the Fall of 2009 and came across “Body by Science.” After scanning through the book with a cup of coffee I was impressed by the soundness and simplicity of the program. In short, I started exercising at my local gym the BBS way following both the book and the videos on the web-site. Dot joined me with these exercises a few weeks later.
Paleo Diet
My introduction to the paleo diet was different and interesting. My very good friend John Wickenden invited me – also in October 2009 – up to his camp in the woods 250 miles north of Montreal. During the drive up, around mid-morning, I was feeling quite hungry and needed to stop for a bagel and peanut butter. When John asked me what I had eaten for breakfast I replied “a nourishing bowl of oatmeal porridge.” Talk about a moment of conversion on the road! John introduced to the paleo diet world.
Putting It Together
There are no coincidences in life. Dot and I have a son and family in Duluth, Ga whom we visit as often as we can. During our March/April 2010 trip to Duluth we arranged to meet Ed Garbe at the U.E. gym in Seneca, SC. In Ed we found a most warm, hospitable and helpful person. He also treated me like he was a Sgt Major with probably the most intensive, short duration exercise routine I have ever had - which certainly created inroading. At the same time we obtained Dr McGuff’s “What to Eat, What not to Eat” DVD and print-out. To this day Dot and I perform our Big 5’s, usually on 8 day intervals and follow (not always strictly to the letter) a paleo diet emphasizing grass-fed meats and poultry. The results are outstanding.
Accomplishments
Some of the results can be measured as follows
Norm Nov 09 May 10
Weight 164 151
Seated leg press 200 330
Chest Press 105 135
Dot
Weight 145 125
Seated leg press 80 120
Chest Press 40 60
However, resistance and tul measurements do not indicate all the successes we enjoy. Both of us have never felt better. Our health is excellent. We perform our daily tasks and participate in leisure activities with zest and enthusiasm. When the snow isn’t covering the course we play golf always walking pulling a cart or carrying a bag. We revel in our nature walks at home or abroad. Long gone are the sore and injured muscles and joints as we used to pound the pavement jogging, use a treadmill or a stationary bike and exercise on standard gym equipment doing high reps with low intensity.
Spreading the Gospel
Every opportunity which presents itself – and there have been many – I follow through by explaining, demonstrating and converting people to the merits of the BBS and paleo diet way of life. A supreme example is John Wickenden, known to many and a contributor to Dr McGuff’s blog. Another convert is the Club Captain of our Golf Club, in his early 80’s. Just this weekend we will be showing some of the exercises to another couple who come from Burlington, Ontario. It never stops!
Finally, I cannot leave without acknowledging once again the incredible leadership of Dr McGuff and Ed Garbe who have been the backbone to changing my and Dot’s approach to exercise and diet. Thank you and we wish you continued success.
Norm Jones
And Now John:

WOW
Baye style b/weight squats to failure immediately followed by
TBDL to perceived failure, i.e. I felt another rep attempt would lead to form breakdown
Close grip pulldown J Rep Halves to failure 20 sec rest full reps to failure at which point I did s/h for as long as possible, maybe 5 seconds
Dumbell floor press slow cadence to non movement s/h to complete failure.
Interestingly despite putting the b.w squat in front I was able to use same weight on TBDL therefore;
I’m expecting to be ROBAT’d by tomorrow pm
A theory I have proposed is that the system is attempting to shut down.
Biological self-preservation and system redundancy is circumvented by the atypical act of slow repetition speed, accommodating cam, and the purest gravity effect we can get.
In a sense we “fly under the radar.”
The stimulus is presented in a manner so foreign to the body that we stay beneath its protective margins, at least for a longer period of time. This may also account for the protective nature some have expressed when we encounter “harsh” resistance. A bracing affect if you will.
I cannot say the same for traditional HIT type training…Negative only…or motors trying to pry people apart.
Rather than throw around phrases like ‘CNS Burnout’….have a look closer at why you think a problem occurs and fix it.
ref:”Negative thoughts part 4″ and “To Pump or not to Pump” over on the RenEx blog.
@Ad
Thanks for your input, the equipment is smooth although the C7 row requires incredible focus to ensure perfect form, at times I think it is mechanically trying to pull me apart. The staff at Kieser are pretty good however you are right about distractions, the D6 chest press is positioned so that the front entrance and reception is directly in my line of sight, to overcome this I now close my eyes during the exercise, I train assisted, so my trainer pre pins and allows me non standard settings on the machines to suit my ROM the the bottom outs and end stops. Mobile phones and loud talking are banned, my only frustration is allot of trainees workout on their own, I like to move quickly between exercises max 20 secs but some guys take 30-40 secs to set up their machine that I am moving to next. It is the way it is, not everybody has HIT goals and they pay fees to train so I must respect that and seek better time slots so the facility is quiet.
All
My input on CNS burnout, I sense factors such as poor sleep patterns, heavy work schedules, poor diet & emotional stress would be the more likely contributor, like a perfect storm, if these conditions are present, throwing a proper HIT WOW on top too frequently will accelerate your demise, somebody paraphrased a quote by Greg Anderson on here, I like it equally so I do look forward to Skyler carrying out his threat of presenting complicated data and Josh’s very technical perspective.
In the peripheral nervous system, acetylcholine activates muscles as a neurotransmitter. Adenosine concentration increases as high intensity muscular contractions continue. Adenosine exerts pre-synaptic inhibition on acetylcholine, thus limiting muscular contraction ability.
Furthermore, the lactic acid produced from high intensity muscular contractions adversely affect nerve endings.
“Flying under the radar” is a tactic used by military aviators to avoid detection by enemy forces. Thus, this choice of words is a poor descrition for any exercise protocol.
The “CNS burnout” term inadequately describes the normal physiological results of high intensity muscular training. However, there is a physiological basis for this process, regardless of one’s opinion.
Casey Butt has what sounds like a reasonable argument for “CNS burnout” as follows:
- Most studies show that even after a very intense exercise session, elevated levels of protein sythesis return to baseline within 48 hours, indicating that muscle rebuilding has been completed.
- Experience shows that full recovery from that same intense exercise session might be up to a week or more.
- So if the muscle rebuilding is over within 48 hours, and you need to wait 7+ days to be fully recovered, something else must still be recovering. He suggest that it might be your nervous systems ability to fire neurons at the highest rate possibly. Alternatively, your brain may be shutting you down early to protect joints that were overstressed - again, a central nervous system override.
So perhaps anyone who needs more than two days to recover from an intense workout session has CNS burnout…. (Just to play devil’s advocate.)
Something else must be recovering, but why CNS?..when you look at inflammation and how the phases go, you get the picture. Inflammatory signals, cell migration, removal of residues, reneval of vascular supply, regeneration of ECM, epithelium…
Saturday morning workout:
Pulldown x 1 set
Hammer incline press x 1 set
Hammer leg press x 1 set
Hammer low row x 1 set
Machine shoulder press x 1 set
Leg extension x 2 sets
Dumbbell bent laterals x 2 sets
Machine shrug x 1 set
Leg curl x 1 set
Push-up x 2 sets
I decided to try leg extensions using an old for-home, multi-exercise bench that has a leg extension attachment (because that’s what I’ve got). I felt a little embarrassed since my leg extension didn’t cost $2500 (more like $100) and I was a bit afraid it wouldn’t feel right. But guess what! With a relatively slow cadence and some focus, I was able to target my quads without a problem and it felt pretty darn good, with rubbery legs upon standing to boot (and not smidgen of knee discomfort).
Google found this for me:
Serotonin and central nervous system fatigue: nutritional considerations.
J Mark Davis, Nathan L Alderson, and Ralph S Welsh
Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72(suppl):573S–8S.
The paper lists 3 references that are supposed to offer direct evidence for “inhibition of central drive after exercise”:
Brasil-Neto JP, Pascual-Leone A, Valls-Sole J, Cammarota A,
Cohen LG, Hallett M. Post-exercise depression of motor evoked potentials: a measure of central nervous system fatigue. Exp Brain Res 1993;93:181–4.
Gandevia S, Gabrielle MA, Butler JE, Taylor JL. Supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue: evidence for suboptimal output from the motor cortex. J Appl Physiol 1996;490:520–36.
Taylor JL, Butler JE, Allen GM, Gandevia S. Changes in motor cor- tical excitability during human muscle fatigue. J Appl Physiol 1996;490:519–28.
I’ll let the PubMed warriors and professional physiologists tell me whether or not there is anything to these studies, but the titles suggest it might be more than just body building mythology.
Marc, with that discription “flying under the radar” seems to be The perfect expression of whats going on. Thanks for nailing that one!
//Jonas
front grip pulldown
shoulder press
pullover
leg press - squat
leg press - upright
workout time 9:42
Jonas says:
“Marc, with that discription “flying under the radar” seems to be The perfect expression of whats going on. Thanks for nailing that one!”
Could you please be specific……I do not understand?
Joshua Trentine says:
“A theory I have proposed is that the system is attempting to shut down.”
———
I tend to agree with you. Everything that I know…which is by no means all-inclusive…points to this theory.
———-
“Biological self-preservation and system redundancy is circumvented by the atypical act of slow repetition speed, accommodating cam, and the purest gravity effect we can get.”
———
This is a grey area. I’m not sure if a slow rep speed can fool the body, which is essentially what you are concluding. I have grave doubts if this is true. It is a very hard thing to do….that is….fooling mother nature. Look at all the overweight people….they eat too much…..but fool themselves….as they all say….they don’t eat that much. Human nature is at work…..but mother nature is not playing….so obesity…is mother nature’s reward.
There is no evidence that a mechanical cam plays any role whatsoever…..on the contrary, results….rather good results….can be had with barbells. Cam? A holdover from the Nautilus era.
The purest form of gravity is straight UP….and straight Down. Your machines violate this with the force of gravity redirected with pulleys and belts. A deadlift machine and a hip belt squat machine using pulleys and cable would have been the smart investment…..UP…DOWN…Get It!
————
In a sense we “fly under the radar.”
The stimulus is presented in a manner so foreign to the body that we stay beneath its protective margins, at least for a longer period of time. This may also account for the protective nature some have expressed when we encounter “harsh” resistance. A bracing affect if you will.
———
A foreign stimulus is a way to guarantee the body implements protective mechanisms. Fear…cannot be overridden.
———–
I cannot say the same for traditional HIT type training…Negative only…or motors trying to pry people apart.
Rather than throw around phrases like ‘CNS Burnout’….have a look closer at why you think a problem occurs and fix it.
———
I tend to agree with the above….with the possible exception that eccentric repetitions can be used for athletic competition…rest pause style.
I appreciate your passion for the iron sport. We sure do agree on far more than we disagree on. Keep up your good work.
A little self experimentation upon myself has just been concluded. When I discovered and started training BBS big 5 at Kieser Training on MedEx machines I used the 4/2/4 protocol for two years with reasonable adaptation, hypertrophy % body re composition & positive metabolic & lipid adaptations. About 10 mths ago I came across the RenEx SS protocol 10/10, squeeze technique, I followed this for many months with accelerated success, give or take other variables such as diet modifications,recovery patterns & still learning how to practice thorough inroad, still Big 5. After a sense of plateau I reduced the big 5 to 3, A&B routines every 5-7 days but with a change, I wanted to test Drew Bayes contradiction to RenEx by going back to 4/2/4. I found I was outroading most of the time and the tension appeared to either disparate or run away during the positive stroke, momentum or acceleration was creeping in despite my best efforts to negate it.I would feel tired or drained for a couple of days post WOW although TUL/RCT & weights were increasing every WOW, however, growth seemed to stall, my musculature felt less powerful& some shape diminished.
I reverted back to RenEx 10/10 thorough inroad technique, squeeze technique, no more, no less. Outroading is minimal but the muscle pump during exercise is huge, post WOW the musculature that was trained literally feels weak for 36 hours after, I got to those fast twitch fibers, during the last rep or two doing SS 10/10 I actually feel the fibers fall off as the orderly recruitment accelerates before the muscle gases out so to speak. The adaptation feels more robust & complete in the recovery phase.
I am 180cm, medium responder?,170 pounds, typically Seated Chest Press 300 pounds, Leg Press 390 pounds, Leg ext 200 pounds, for those who wish to know.
The overarching point I am making here is that different guys respond in a whole manner of ways to a different stimulus, 10/10 is a good fit for me.I have great respect for Drew Baye and I wish not to appear challenging him, in fact I appreciate his contradiction because it gave me the ability to test different protocols.
Thanks
Hi Pete,
I think that self-experiementing on yourself is the way to go. When I first started training HIT I used most of the Advanced Overload Training methods that I could find. This was a great learning tool of what my body was doing when training to MMF as I had not trained this way previuosly. Since than I have made some modifications to my HIT training. I find that regardless of the equipment used that it is more of how I train than what I train on. Having said that most of my training is on MedX equipment.
Pete, as we mentioned a few weeks ago some of Australia’s major sporting codes are under investigation for players being administered enhancing performance drugs by “specialist training staff. It appears that what is coming out of the investigations is that enhancing performance drugs are wide spread in our professional sports here in Australia. What should be applauded is that our drug testing agency have had the “balls” to take on these multi billion dollar sporting codes. Another surprising thing all the so-called sports reporters who supposedly knew nothing of the sports drug culture. I am now waiting to see how many players all of a sudden get small.
Hi Steven
I am sure you have an eye for it, have you noticed the varying degrees of rapid change in body composition during on/off season & when teams change the strategy there can be rapid changes noted, more so AFL, as NRL players just need to be big, changes are on the horizon and we need to ensure the young kids have realistic role models to aspire to, otherwise they will damage themselves with high volume workouts fueled with peptides & horse drugs because if it was alright for the club doctors, then it must be alright for me??. Sports scientists & physiologists I believe have good intentions and lots to offer however I feel the pressure these guys must get from the corporate sponsors & club boardroom executives must be difficult due to the ‘win at all costs mentality’ Not sure what the culture in USA NFL, NBL & League Baseball is like? But for me again, it all comes down to this “The real objective of exercise as opposed to the assumed objective” I choose the real.
Pete
Did anybody read Max Muscle Plan by Brad Schoenfeld? Not HIT at all, but very well designed periodised program for us normal guys. Requires more time and variability than HIT though. Schoenfeld is regarded as hypertrophy expert as he authored numerous studies. And you can see he knows what he talks about.
Ondrej
I have the book and think it is good. Not HIT, but there are lots of approaches that will work.
Chris
I know you have it. Wasn’t it me who recommended it to you?:D
While the programme is as practical as possible for periodised protocol with constant changes of exercises and styles and the book is very well written, it can’t compete with HIT for at-home training I think. Plus, I never really understood how one choses the weight for, let’s say, 7-8 RPE (rate of percieved exertion) of 15-20 reps for 3 sets. How the hell I know that? Guesstimation?:-)