Sun 22 Jul 2012
W.O.W. 7/13 and 7/21/12-Is Recovery Trainable?
Posted by Doug McGuff under Uncategorized
I did a shoulder/arms/leg press WOW with Ed and Sherry on 7/13/12. I recovered quickly even though it was only 5 days since the prior WOW.
MedX Overhead Press
Rear deltoid fly-Jrep halves
Thick Bar Biceps Curl
EZ Bar Reverse Curl
Nautilus Plate Load Triceps
Formulator Flex/Ext
MedX Leg Press
After an 8 day respite I did a chest/back/leg press routine.
Lumbar Extension on SSS Pulldown
MedX Leg Press (with end stop technique)
MedX Chest Press
Nautilus Pullover with SS retrofits
MedX Row with SS fall-off cam
I felt very strong. However, today I am sore, hammered and irritable. My recent experience seems to suggest that recovery is somewhat trainable as opposed to being just a linear concept. Another possibility is that full recovery actually permits a higher level of performance that is simply more difficult to recover from in the acute phase. I suspect it is actually a combination of the two. Subjectively I would quantitate it as 20% deconditioning and 80% increased output, but that is entirely based on feel. I know others have enough experience in this game to have some input, so let me know what you think.
Post your WOW’s and your thoughts.
You seem to be going in the opposite direction from typical Superslow experience that says the more advanced you get, the more time off you have to take. Or maybe you’re learning how not to “outroad”.
_
It’s hard to describe vague whole body sensations, but what is “somewhat trainable as opposed to being just a linear concept”? It could be both trainable and linear, i.e. you’re making the slope of the recovery line more acute. You’re just recovering in a shorter time.
_
Maybe I’m overthinking here too.
Since you didn’t do exactly the same workout every time, I imagine it is a little difficult to separate actual performance from subjective feel. I know that when I am trying to lose weight, the scale doesn’t always move in a smooth, linear fashion, and I don’t always get what I expect when I get on the scale every morning. Some days, I feel ‘thinner’, but the weight doesn’t reflect that. Other days, I am lower than expected. My weight has what seems like a random fluctuation of +/- 1 LB from day to day which can make it difficult to see progress on a daily basis.
I would imagine that strength training and recovery have similar fluctuations built in. (There clearly are reasons for these things, just not clearly discerned.) And since you have been doing this a long time, and probably are not making large gains in performance from workout to workout, perhaps you shouldn’t read too much into a short experiment.
@Doug,
The body seems to display a concern for efficiency (in the context of survival). As an example, if you eat very little protein, the body uses it very efficiently…if you eat a lot of protein, the body begins using it less efficiently…it adjusts to the scenario presented.
I believe there is relevance to recovery time here. recovery doesn’t exist in a vacuum, and so factor other than ‘time between exercise sessions’ will greatly influence. That said, if you consistently provide your body a lot of recovery time, it will learn/adapt to take that long to recover. Conversely, periods of less recovery will propmt the body to adjust and become more efficient at bringing you to baseline.
The art is not overplaying your hand…nothing happens linearly, and as I mentioned, there are other factors that come into play here. All things being equal, I think the goal should be toward the most frequency and volume you can train your body to adapt to (obviously within the constraints of safety, health, etc.)…and away from the less is more mindset; the least amount possible mindset that has some extending recovery out beyond a point of ridiculousness.
The relationships between recovery and the exercise stimulus is probably not even worth discussing outside the context of strictly controlled behavior and environment…a fair assessment simply cannot be made. If your behavior allows you to beat the shit out of your body (inadvertently) you can throw streamlined recovery out the window. With more precision in the the delivery system, I believe it becomes a clearer picture.
I don’t feel like going back and editing the above…but all of it should be taken as my opinion and pet theory, even if it is written with some tone of assurance.
WOD:
-Shin Raise
-Glutiator
-Leg Press
-Pulldown
-Dip
-Rear Deltoid
-Pec Dec
-Triceps
Still experimenting with a new (sub?) protocol and the workouts are getting quite exciting. I also had a range limiter built for the leg press. Beyond the obvious use for keeping the legs loaded, I have already found use when teaching the leg press. By keeping a new trainee in the bottom half of the movement, with no way to escape, they get very good at the initial takeoff in a very short period of time. Motor learning texts call this “part practice” and I’m finding for many it is quite helpful.
W.O.W:
mith machine incl.press
nautilus 2st pullover
OME calves
OME shruggs
As I wrote last week ,I will workout 3 times within 8 days and then have a recovery period of 2 weeks.This is done as an experiment because of not being able to workout these 2 weeks so I thought, lets try it. This workout of today was done after 4 days of recovery and it went very well.The next workout will be done after 3 days of recovery.Just curious if I can get away with it and/or if it make progression in this short term.I know from experience that I would be overtrained within 3 weeks if I kept this shedule.Again I just want to see how I feel afterwards.
I see recovery as a very individual issue with a lot of fluctuations for the individualbecause of changes in sleep,nutrition ,stress ,etc. And since(in my opinion) overtraining is something that can’t be judged on performance from one to the next workout it takes some time before one knows he is overtrained.I tend to stay on the safe side with some extra recovery for most of the time.I try to outroad as little as possible and inroad enough so the stimulus is as good as it can be.Lesser outroad could mean faster recovery and thus more frequent workouts(again ,per individual)but taking 1 or 2 extra days off wouldn’t be a big deal regarding progression but will give one more time above baseline.How much more progression would I achieve on an annual base by not taking these 2 extra days off?And would that be worth the risk of gliding into an overtrained state over an extended period? So I keep track of progression over a longer period,be honest about how I feel every day(well almost),know when my life circumstances have an influence on recovery and adjust accordingly.
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Skylar,
Do you train every day?
Hi all,
Any info on John Little? I can’t access his website nautilusnorth.com. I was considering his Max Straps. I can’t find the straps on either amazon or ebay. Could he of gone out of business or just updating the website?
I wish he was still making the original Max Contraction Home Unit.
@John Beynor: Hi John, no worries I’m still around (just super busy these days). I let the nautilusnorth.com web address go as my nephew Dan Craig has opened a Nautilus North of his own just 30-minutes north from where I live and so we are in the midst of updating the website (which will now be nautilusnorth.ca). I expect to making some more Max Straps soon (they’re expensive to make as they are not mass produced, so I’m at the mercy of the production schedule of the people that I have making them for me here) and will keep you posted via this website when they are available. Sorry for the inconvenience and confusion.
July 21, 2012
1. MedX Chest Press
2. OME Weighted Chin Up
3. MedX Leg Press
4. MedX Lateral Raise
5. MedX Wrist Flexion
6. MedX Wrist Extension
7. OME Calf Raises
I’m with Joe A regarding trainability of recovery between workouts. I am myself in the middle of an experiment with slightly increased frequency and am able to train about every 4-5 days without any problems so far. I can also say that HIIT-type training (specifically, 4-5 400m sprints with about 60-90s of recovery in between, to the point where I had to lay down between the last bouts) have helped me to recover faster (despite the additional training stress) from my BBS workouts. I don’t claim to understand the reason for this effect, but it is consistent and repeatable for me personally.
@Blain
I’m not training daily, just twice per week/once every fifth day.
WOD:
Hammer incline press
Weighted chin (with one drop set, less weight)
Hammer leg press
Weighted dip
Hammer leg press
Body weight chin
Standing barbell press (20 reps total, did 7 on the first effort, then 6,5 and 4)
I’d be interested in what the folks here thing about the latest article by Gus Diamantopoulos on the Ren Ex site on statics and the new static machines they are introducing.
Thanks,
David
I like TSC particularly for pre exhaust but I don’t like the idea that you need machines with which to perform them.
The article over at Renex is excellent.
Re the need for a machine to effect TSC? We are in an age of information, chasing ever better solutions, and tracking / measuring everything (These days this applies to almost every area of life)
Therefore I think the effort monitoring capability of the new machines fall in line with what everyone seeks, in one way or another, when measuring performance and progress with any kind of resistance training.
While I see the value in some sort of feedback I also think it complicates things perhaps unnecessarily.
It also makes TSC inaccessible when really it is the most accessbile technique of all. Here we are with a simple technique from which we exclude virtually everyone except for the tiny % of people who have access to these machines! The perfect ideal is becoming the enemy of the good enough….
RennEx has a business - which is fine - so they are selling their machines but we you can still do a TSC without a machine
I’ve been on the TSC pullover and TSC Pulldown. Once you use these you have an idea of what a TSC should feel like when doing without feed back. The feedback does help you perform it better/harder. Does that mean you can’t do them without feedback … no … but you gain something from having done it with feedback.
I’ve been on the TSC pullover and TSC Pulldown. Once you use these machines you have an idea of what a TSC should feel like when doing without the feedback. The feedback does help you perform it better/harder. Does that mean you can’t do them without feedback … no … but you gain something from having done it with feedback first to know what the gaol should feel like.
Chris
Can you tell me whether Hillfit includes information on using isometric exercise/TSC as part of the recommended regime? I have been experimenting with the wall sit as a pre-exhaust for the squat(with some success)and I’d like to see how I could apply this to other parts of my home training.
Cheers
Simon
@Chris
I won’t harp on this, as we already discussed on the RenEx site. However, I think you are missing the point if you think this is about selling machines.
You have a group of people who instruct exercise for a living. Their venture into machines is simply an effort to deliver the best exercise stimulus to their clients…if it helps others who train, then all the better…if they make money, then it is fair exchange for the transfer of knowledge (whether in concept or product).
So, they think they are on to something with TSC…without a delivery system that makes the experience repeatable, progressive and controllable, then it has limited use in the business. From their perspective, why not explore the potential fully? To that end, feedback (for the trainee and instructor) is crucial to the experience.
For those who exercise independently, there are many TSC exercises that can be done quite well with limited equipment…especially for the individual who is skilled at inroading himself. For most, I suspect they provide tremendous foreshadowing of what may be possible with this type of exercise. IME, human nature is such that we try to qualify and quantify our experiences…in the presence of limited objective data points, the mind has trouble focusing the body’s effort toward an objective. basically, many people suck at subjectively interpreting and assessing…and directing their effort accordingly.
I really think we are in agreement; we just have a different purpose. You seem to care about exercise being widely or generally available and performed. I only care about my ability to instruct it well to the few I have the privilege to affect. The general population and what they understand about exercise or what they may (or may not) have access to is of no interest to me or my business. If my goal isn’t to offer an exercise experience that is superior to that which they can achieve on their own, then it is time to get out of the business.
Dammit…I really tried not to harp.
Simon
It is not in the booklet but it is mentioned breifly in the FAQs on the web site - where I recommend TSC pullover as a preexhaust for the modified chin.
www . hillfit . com
The wall sit is not strictly a TSC but as an isometric it is a great move - simple, safe, congruent.
Quantifiable isometric contractions have been available for quite some time. The addition of a force cell to quantify an overcoming isometric (an isometric contraction where you cannot move the movement arm) is a nice idea and one that we’ve found quite useful with our apparently deadly, possibly responsible for the pending war in Iran ARX equipment.
However, if one does not have access to such equipment, one can quantify an yielding isometric (an isometric contraction where you resist a movement arm from descending due to gravity) with a range limiter device and resistance. Both work well, are safe, and can be progressed over time.
Joe
No need to apologise. I do think we are in agreement.
As I said, I think machines with feedback would be great but there is no way that I will ever have access to them. I would like TSC to be accessible to lots of folk….but primarily I want to use it myself and realistically I have no access to the machines. Selfishly the accessibility I am thinking about is personal.
So much of this is mental - as we’ve discussed before - and unfortunately that is something that we may never be able to teach to the majority of people out there.
As Skyler says the yeilding iso is another option - the wall sit for example - progression and feedback via time and weight.
All interesting stuff and again I am wary of letting a focus on minutae divert us from the end goal - thorough exhaustion of the maximum number of sequentially recruited motor units. TSC / or even yiedling isometrics are one way of doing this. That is what we need to teach.
by the way, I juat noticed someone on the RennEx board suggest using a set of bathroom scales under the elbows in a TSC Pullover to provide feedbeack. Interesting
Hi,
I would like to see some data from john little regarding recovery/progression(or no regression)he recorded after the Nautilus North study,if possible.Maybe some of the persons invloved with the study draw radical conclusions from the outcome/data and adjusted their workouts accordingly and thus have maybe recorded the results over time.
I’m still in the proces of getting as lean as possible .Then I’m in a better situation to track muscle growth or loss(apart from body weight) over a certain timespan ,also a criteria for judging recovery besides performance.
Today I recieved the One Diet book.I will have time to read it the next 10 days.Who has read it and got something out of the book and applied it?
Next week or so I can do a test regarding BMR on a equipment called fitmate.My employer purchased it.Will inform about the outcome soon.
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Hi John Little,
Nice to here from you. Will there be any changes or updates to the Max Contraction website and products? Would you and/or Randy ever consider making the original Max Contraction Home Unit again? If not, do you think I could get one made for me by someone?
Not quite On Topic but there’s a great post at Suppversity about a Spanish research team’s look at training to failure versus not to failure. It’s pretty technical and I’ve only just started to dig into it.
W.O.W:
OME dips
seated row
nautilus 2st legpress
nautilus 2st neck ext./flex.
This was the third workout in 8 days .Legpress was off by 1 rep.I didn’t feel bad while waking up this morning but actually didn’t feel like working out either.From the start of the workout all felt normal.I think this shedule couldn’t be maintained for another week.But maybe I will try to shedule my 3 way split to once every 5 days and the full body workouts to once every 7 days.Also doing this while actually paying good attention to how I feel and adjust accordingly.
Now I get 2 weeks of rest.
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I’ve been able to maintain, and gain, on three days per week total body HIT routine for several months, but it always ends in a total crash and regression-not worth it in my opinion. While on this schedule I didn’t always feel like training either, and sometimes didn’t make the prior rep count, but I usually made it up in the next workout (until the inevitable crash, when I couldn’t even drag myself to the gym). But, I tried never to judge progression or whether or not I was over-training or how the future schedule would go by my response to one workout. There are too many variables involved with performance to do that.
In regards to training frequency and volume I’m with the late Mike Mentzer. Mike taught that as we grow stronger we need more days off to recover, not less. anyone living in las vegas looking for a training partner can reach me at 702-426-8851.
WOD
-Nitro Adduction
-SSS Leg Curl
-Nitro Leg Press
-Nitro Compound Row
-Med-X Chest Press
-Nitro Pullover
-Nitro Bicep Curl
-Calves on Nitro Leg Press
Time of workout: 15′50″
Training twice per week, which is just fine for progress and recovery. Occasionally when life gets too hectic I drop back to once per week and suffer no regression.
W.O.W 21st July - 10 days since last workout
Leg Press (new p.b.)
Weighted chin (new p.b.)
@ Jay Rhine
I couldn’t agree more Jay!
As far as HIT and recovery goes, I have had great success doing one set a day. I have weights in my house so this makes it extremely easy. monday would be 1 set of chest press, tuesday would be one set of pulldowns, etc… Training time totals about 90 seconds per day and I feel great all the time. This is what works best for me. Just a suggestion. Have others tried anything similar?
WOW 26 July - Chest, Triceps & Shoulders
6:20am
Overhead Press (dumbbells)
Chest Fly
Lateral Raise (dumbbells)
Chest Press
Closures On Head (dumbbells)
Dips
Decided to listen to music for this workout, something I haven’t done in months…maybe a year. This meant none of my movements were timed however I’ve done SuperSlow for over 2 years now so I’ve got a pretty clear idea of a good TUL for each set and I’m sure they were all roughly in the 60-90 seconds range.
RE recovery, I used to leave 5-7 days between workouts on a 3 day split but found there was TOO much rest so for about 4/5months now I’ve been working out 2/3 times a week; depending on how active I am or how I feel.
What works for me and is something that I think applies to everything exercise/nutrition related, is that I ‘listen’ to my body. There may be those odd sessions where I have to squeeze a workout early in the morning before work which can be a little bit of a struggle, but most of the time I go into a workout completely psyched!
Similar thing for food/drink I suppose - I enjoy the odd glass of red wine or lager but only if I really want one. The more I don’t drink, the more I don’t want. I’m aware there may be a placebo effect, but I’m confident a low carb diet allows for much more harmony between your mind and body…I’m not a hippie btw.
Random question that’s not really related to the topic, but something I was thinking about the other day - does anybody know how animal fat intake is a good energy source and essential for good health (not doubting that) but animals such as bears are able to put on loads of bodyfat by simply eating lots of salmon? Is it just a case of them bypassing some hormone that tells them they’re full and they just overeat…? Curious to know, that’s all.
Cheers.
@Adam
Bears gorge on everything they can to gain weight for hibernation, not just fish:
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/bear-essentials-of-hibernation.html
Best,
Skyler
@Blain
the you kill yourself in a gyme the more you can work out! Try one rep at the time with pleaty of rest between them! You’ll be shocked to leard how much more weight you can handle!
TSC are all well and fine but for myself I loose strength when I return to regular dynamic exercise. It does not carry over for me. Nothing to get excited about for me.
Dave … there is some skill involved in dynamic no matter what … I feel the protocol should be based on the muscle mass you keep and how your functional ability holds up … at least for me at age 55
WOD:
Standing barbell press: warm up, then 4×3
Hammer leg press: 1×20 (the last 10 were rest pause)
Standing barbell press: 1×8
Pulldown: 20 reps (11,5,5)
Front squat: 2×10
Hammer low row: 1×10 rest pause
Hammer calf press: 2 sets, max reps
Hammer Inclin press: 1×17 rest pause
A good workout. Not a total gut buster but I felt worked. I’m enjoying front squats right now-an exercise that is definitely done for multiple sets and not to failure IMO (at least for me).
chest press
compound row
chest press - 40 second negative
leg press
low back
leg press -40 second negative
@Skyler
Fascinating article, cheers for that!
July 29, 2012
1. MedX Chest Press
2. OME Weighted Chin Up
3. MedX Leg Press
4. MedX Lateral Raises
5. MedX Biceps
6. Nautilus Triceps
7. OME Calf Raises
WOD:
-Shin Raise
-Dynavec Glutiator
-Nitro Leg Press
-Nitro Pulldown
-Med-X Dip
-Nitro Rear Deltoid
-Nitro Pec Dec
-Triceps on Nitro Pulldown
Into phase 3 of my Pagan, Semi-Lunar, Zeus-dictated hypertrophy experiment (TM, of course). Getting very hard but also feeling very strong. Time will tell how this works out but it feels good thus far.
Looking forward to thrashing Doug next month at the 21 Convention. I’m sure Anthony will get a video of Doug pulling his teeth out on the ARX equipment for all to enjoy.
@Blain,
A while back I started doing brief yet multi-set workouts daily and I love it. You can click on my name and check out the site I have created around it. I found I acutally enjoyed frequent workouts, so I shortened them dramatically and commit to a daily 5 minute workout. I modulate the intensity (effort) and size of muscle group worked by “feel” - some days I go after compound leg or back workout, some days are grippers. What I love about BBS/HIT is the many ways you can take the core principles of brief and focused muscular effort and personalize the frequency and duration to one’s own needs/goals/wants for optimal results.
@John Tatore,
I completely agree with the goal of maintaining or gaining lean mass as a foundational measurement of weight training success. This is so important ESPECIALLY as one ages!
Health and strength to all,
Brandon
Has anyone tried HIT with 7 day rest and halfway thru the week filled in with beginners MAX CONTRACTION?
WOW
Leg Press Medx
Pullover Nautilus
Overhead Press Medx
Barbell Curl
Triceps Pushdowns
Abdominal Medx
Neck Ext Nautilus Next Generation
Good workout done on 4 days rest. Slight improvements on TUL for everything.
Is recovery trainable? Maybe so - bigger question might be if it is trainable which is better? Adapt to training more often to provide stimulus more often or train less and deliver a bigger stimulus each time?
My suspicion is that it would be better to train more often as long there is an increase. IMO a small increase is a better bargain than trying to dig a deeper hole to trigger a bigger increase.
In my thinking it goes along the lines of instead of seeing how much can be tolerated it is better to see how little is required. This is usually mentioned in terms of volume and frequency but I think it is an equally important consideration when it comes to intensity.
My personal experience has shown that if I rest a full week between workouts I definitely train harder, dig a deeper hole but I am more trashed the next day.
If I train every 4 or 5 days I don’t have that extra bit at the end to really push further past failure but I don’t see any different results than from training harder and life is a little easier. If anything I think I improve more with a slightly higher frequency of training ( but my mirror is a notoriously poor yardstick).
Six or seven workouts a month seems to work better for me than 4 harder workouts a month.