Mon 18 Jun 2012
W.O.W. 6/12/12 and 6/17/12- Better Recovery, and PubMed Drives Me Nuts.
Posted by Doug McGuff under Uncategorized
Something is going on. I am recovering much faster these days. Working out every 5th day has been no problem. I even feel recovered by the end of post workout day 1. I attribute this to more detailed attention to diet, hydration, sleep and supplementation. I have been using different techniques and intensity extenders to get to my “pop-up timer”. Rather than just listing the workout, I will make comments on the techniques used within the set.
6/12
Pulldown on SS Systems Pulldown- Heavy weight with 10/10 cadence. At the completion of the 4th rep I held statically as long as I could until I was dragged through the negative.
MedX Chest Press- slow cadence. 400lbs to failure, the pop-pin drop to 200lbs to failure with rest-pause at failure x 3 reps. Then gapped out to 7 holes on the weight stack with 140lbs gripping the vertical handles and squeezing together as I pressed out (essentially the top 1/2 of the range of motion), followed by 3 rest-pause reps
Nautilus Pullover with SS retrofits- done RenEx style with squeeze technique starting on the 3rd rep
MedX Row with SS fall-off cam- done RenEx style with squeeze technique starting on the 3rd rep
MedX Leg Press- done RenEx style with hard end-stop and squeeze technique starting on the 3rd rep
6/17-Father’s Day
MedX Overhead Press- 400lbs 5/5 cadence to failure, gap out 7 holes (top half ROM) and then slow cadence to failure
Rear Delt Fly- Done in Jrep halves
Thick Bar Biceps Curl- 95 pounds to failure followed by 3 rest-pause reps
Nautilus Plate-loaded Triceps- RenEx Style with squeeze technique starting at 3rd rep
EZ bar reverse curl-failure plus 3 rest-pause
Thick bar wrist flexion- straight set to failure
MedX Leg Press- Much heavier weight without end-stop done to failure. Then increase weight stack gap from 4 to 7 and cut weight in half-failure plus 3 rest-pause
Despite all the intensity extenders, my recovery has been great. I wish I had learned to pay more attention to the “organism” in the stimulus-organism-response sooner.
I was over at Chuck Spencer’s site (www.go2strength.wordpress.com) looking for grist for the thought mill after coming up dry at PubMed. As usual he had another thought-provoking post that I highly recommend. One of the commenters made note that my blog had become “not very scientific”. What I am finding is that the literature can be less than useless when it comes to answering the questions that we care about WRT training. There are so many variables WRT training as it intersects with a particular person’s genotype that it is almost impossible to identify an “ideal” approach. The only saving grace is that we are working with the most plastic tissue in the world and the elements that make the real difference in outcome seem to be those elements that are outside the specifics of training protocol. If you train with reasonable intensity and brevity and focus on optimizing “the state of the organism” results will come. See my prior posts on “the Nocebo Effect” and the post entitled “Asparagus Pee” for more on this topic. As for scientific topics, I must say PubMed drives me nuts.
Post your WOW’s and your thoughts
Doug
What do you think of people who take testosterone injections to keep them at the upper level of their age range. I have tow clients who do it. One is 37 the other 42. The 37 year old has shown muscle increase since doing it.
John
Hugh comes in here and craps all over the minutia parade. Great job, Hugh.
I’m a grad student in exercise science so, not only is this stuff required for my sterling academic record, but it is also of interest to me.
I also believe nobody is smart enough to be wrong all of the time, nor are they smart enough to be right all of the time, this goes for Ken, Doug, or anybody you can name involved in this sordid affair. Two people with the same credentials can look at the same data or event and come to wildly different conclusions.
And to that, it’s not enough to say “They’re stupid” if they disagree with your conclusion, which is what Jones really loved to do. Prove it wrong with a better experiment, show data that arrives at a different conclusion…that’s not how we make what we understand about this process better. You have to back it up.
Having said all of that, most clients are going to maximize what they’re coming to us for with slow, once or twice per week strength training. They’ll get at least 3 times the result with fixing their busted diet, which is a part of the equation that doesn’t get nearly enough focus on this, or other, training boards.
Now that I’m on a roll, I’ve learned a few things about myself that may be helpful to others. I agree with you Doug, that it’s about body re-composition to reveal what all this work has produced. I once weighed in at 240, got as low as 192 last year and over the past 8 months have crept back up to 208. The only differences between then and now is the reintroduction of sugar and beer into my diet and the addition of walking for extended periods of time (usually 2 hours at a time a few times a week.) I rarely ever have bread or any other starch and haven’t for years. The beer never is more than two a day, but I have them almost nightly (Sam Adams Boston Ale: 360 calories for two,) and the sugar is eaten periodically throughout the week (3 Kroger chocolate chip cookies at 450 calories,) though once again it is not very much relative to my past eating habits. I think the walking just plain makes me hungry and I eat more (of the wrong stuff) than I think I am. So, I’ve got to decide if the beer and sugar are worth it (and walking for that matter,) and of course for me they are not, but for others its is. Since I can’t seem to have both beer/sugar and 190 pounds, the beer/sugar have to go. And that could be forever. Not a happy thought. So, out they go and I’ll track the results.
John,
I take the “sustainability” approach to things. So, this 37 year old is going to take this stuff for the next 30+ years? (What a dreadful thought.)Otherwise, why take it now?
Hugh
Hugh
Your post has a lot of resonance, and kind of begs the question why do we keep up the endless debate over minutia.
Well, if I were a genetic superior (for want of a better expression} I am sure I would have no interest in all this stuff. Fact of the matter is I am not, so anything that helps to keep me motivated is welcome.
Also sometimes what comes out of the debates leads to a safer way. Having experienced some pretty bad injuries in the past I am always on my guard WRT anything I do that could have a negative potential in that area.
As far as making further progress is concerned I am having great fun, and success, with diet of the IF and refeed variety. Again this blog led me to Richard Nikloley’s site “Free the Animal”. Richard is over 50 lost a ton of weight, has a deadlift over 300lbs and has gained quality muscle.
And getting grounded via Doug H’s exploits is always good, his latest vid has him doing old school chin’s with a ton of chains. Are you putting this one out there Doug?
John,
About two years ago my Doc (not Doug) said my testosterone was low and that I should get shots. I didn’t think anything was missing in my life, but I did it anyway. After 8 months nothing changed. No real improvement in performance (strength performance!). Didn’t see any gains whatsoever.
Just a personal experience.
Do you think, If You Think It You Will Be It?
Or perhaps it’s an individual thing?
@Brian F
Let me also point out that Richard has been spinning his wheels in the low 180 range for years now. The only experiment that dented that number was basic (relatively) heavy strength training and calorie controlled eating. After that he hurt his neck (or it manifested from something else) and never went back.
-S
RE Minutia: I’ve done 1 set to failure training since the late 70’s, based on my experience back then with training on a Nautilus circuit. After that experience, doing multiple sets just seemed time consuming, and inefficient. However, I didn’t pay all that much attention to how I executed the exercises.
Then some time ago, I read Doug’s book, and made what I thought were some minor tweaks to my exercise routine:
- slowed the reps down to a 5/5 cadence
- paid attention to turnarounds so as to reduce momentum and acceleration effects.
- just generally focused more on feeling the muscles fatigue, rather than trying to add reps and weight.
It clearly made a difference: I can see additional size and definition, particularly in my chest and back. Haven’t had quite as much luck with my legs, mainly because back problems keep me from doing heavy squats and dead lifts. I try doing single leg squats, but those are harder to do with consistent form and speed. I really need a leg press.
Great post from Hugh.
It is not just the minutiae, I think we have our focus often in the wrong place. Our seeking for new protocols and movements reveals possibly that we are not thinking about the real purpose of what we are doing. Maximal Sequential recruitment of maximum motor units, done safely.
That is the domino, knock it over and walk away. Protocols, new techniques etc are all just means to this end. We focus too much and argue over the means. John Little’s Done in One and Max Pyramid are 2 articles that really keep this in focus.
We like to discuss protocols and technique but that keeps us in sport/skill mode. It isn’t about skills. Keep it simple, safe and stay focussed on the target. It is what I am calling Teleological Training - the target, the telos, is what matters for those of you that have a bit of Greek.
Diet - as Skyler says- is vital. Personally despite being paleo for years I had to start watching calories to lose fat. It is not too hard to do and I now have abs for the first time in my life.
Craig
Don’t focus on equipment, don’t blame the equipment…. focus on what you are trying to achieve. Just try wall sits for your legs for instance.
Hi,
Indeed great discussion and thought provoking.I agree that this idea to knock the first domino is what we should be concerned with in the first place .But for me it is about finding out what the best way (safest) for me to do so is .There are ofcourse the fundamentals but also some aspects that can be fine tuned on a individual basis(the domino will fall over anyway ,but how efficient?).And this is indeed still not that complex but can be done in a wrong way so that the price will be payed many years later . When instructing clients this becomes very important.In a certain context we must see to get results with them and thus the need to finetune.Is this concerning about minutia? I don’t think so because we are still concerned with the simple act ofknocking that first domino. However , to keep the analogy I think that if the next dominos in the line are not set up in the correct distance not all dominos will keel over and that could mean that we don’t get the max. benefit from our effort the get the first one falling.This could be minutia but is of very interest to me(diet,rest,sleep).
Again the first aspect (stimulus)is in general the same for every human and I agree that we shouln’t ,as Mike Mentzer said,be concerned with wether the pinky should turn up during a side lateral if the effort isn’t the first concern.As Doug said : don’t let the perfect be the destroyer of the good is what comes to mind here and in that context I also want end with a qoute from Vince Lombardi as it is mentioned in ‘the art of low carbohydrate performance’:Perfection is not attainable.But if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
ad
Definitely enjoying this post immensely! Great input and feedback. Train simply, safely, and consistently and watch what you eat. Makes for a boring read but when executed, delivers a lifetime of results!
In health,
Brandon
@ Chris
Great job on fat loss. While the paleo/primal/Taubesians beat the insulin drum, our body is plenty capable of storing excess as body fat in the absence of insulin. Eating a diet of real food makes our hormonal machinery hum along as it has for thousands of years. Still gotta watch your calories if you’re going to get below your evolutionary set point. I’ve done the same thing over the past 6 weeks and am leaner than I’ve perhaps ever been.
You could get lean on a diet of cake but to make the process as painless as possible I wouldn’t recommend it!
Chris Highcock
Just nipped over to your site for the first time, great work! The results of the study re resistance training and hormonal response is an eye opener. Again demonstrates we don’t slways know what we think we know, and sometimes we actually do know what we think we don;t…etc, etc
On the inspirational vid, Ross; Very strong and athletic, maybe he will get away with it for a few more years but that kind of training is gonna wreak havoc eventually.
@Skyler
True. Calories matter but it is easier to control them - psychologically / hormonally - if you are eating real food rather than crap. I’ve been doing a Leangains style IF diet - cycling carbs and calories with a 16/8 fast/eating window and it is working well. Jeff Erno who sometimes posts here inspired me to try this. Unmeasured paleo was fine but it was only when I started tracking calories, protein, carbs and fat that I got things going towards lean.
@Brian
Thanks. Re Ross I agree. He is a great athlete, but I wouldn’t advise people to train like that.
It’s been several weeks since I’ve shared my WOW. Here’s what I’ve been doing.
—-
WOW No. 88 - 30 May 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 137 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
7 days since last WOW
Db Row 110#
BW Row
Chest Press 150#
Push-ups
45° Leg Press 295#
BW Squats
WOW duration = 11 minutes
—-
WOW No. 89 - 6 June 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 136 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
7 days since last WOW
Overhead Press 90#
Bb Bicep Curl 55#
Straight-Arm Pulldown 40#
Chin-up 136#
Tricep Pressdown 70#
Dip 136#
LP Calf Raise 150#
Myotatic Crunch 5#
WOW duration = 11 minutes
—-
WOW No. 90 - 13 June 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 136 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
7 days since last WOW
Deadlift 135#x2/185×2/265×2/235*/215*/185* (*note: for reps to “failure”)
WOW duration = 11 minutes
—-
WOW No. 91 - 20 June 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 137 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
7 days since last WOW
Db Row 90#
Chest Press 130#
Chin-up 130#
Overhead Press 70#
45° Leg Press 240#
WOW duration = 6 minutes
—-
WOW No. 93 - 27 June 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 139 lbs.
4 days since last WOW
Sprints
WOW duration = 10 minutes
—-
WOW No. 93 - 27 June 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 137 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
4 days since last WOW
Db Row 120#
BW Row
Chest Press 155#
Push-ups
Leg Press 300#
BW Squats
WOW duration = 7 minutes
Oops. The first “WOW No. 93″ listed above should be “WOW No. 92 - 24 June 2012″
–Jeremy
This morning, DOMINODAY:
Nautilus 2st legpress
45 degree legpress max.contraction
nautilus next.gen. seated legcurl
nautilus 2st neck flex./ext.
OME calves
I increased the resistance on the nautilus legpress with 3 kg (it’s the whole stack now) ,also increased calves with 10 pounds.Managed the same performance as before with very good turnarounds and chasing the rep speed at the correct moment.I made sure that the first domino turned over and whatever keels over after that ,it’s happening now.Twitching in the legs and walking stairs feels as if I wear iron shoes.Now waiting for the increased hunger.Just great.
ad
@Doug Holland,
I tried commenting on the last post but it didn’t get through moderation.
Thanks for the technique pointer on the deadlift video. It was something neither I nor anyone I had trained with had noticed before - the tendency to dip before beginning a lift thus bending the elbows. Goes to show the importance of good instruction even for those who think they know better.
I’ve had 2 very stressful weeks and felt run down so have not trained. I was due a deadlift WOW and held off last week. Planned a NTF WOW for today but felt so much better that I thought what the hell I’ll see how I get on and judge when to stop based on how I feel during. I decided to keep the deadlifts in but maybe go alot lighter. Warming up I felt good though and made sure I focused on avoiding the beginning dip and elbow bend. I gradually increased to 160kg and felt so good I thought I’d go for it as I felt confident. Previous 3 deadlift WOW’s I had pulled 160kgx4, today I focused on keeping my arms straight, no dipping, and pulling slowly and cleanly from the floor….pulled 160kgx6 real clean controlled reps. I felt I could have got another one out but decided to play it sensible.
I was in two minds whether training hard would be a good idea as it could have gone one of two ways. Either add to an existing stress essentially digging me a deeper hole to try to get out of OR allow me to blow off enough steam to kind of ‘reset’ mentally and forget about the existing stress. It was a gamble but luckily the latter was the outcome. I find this something that I encounter in trainees frequently, however I always play it safe and go with either having them delay a WOW or just get a NTF WOW in. I never want to dig a hole that’s too deep for them to get out of if they are already stressed.
How do other trainers deal with situations like this?
Also thanks again for the feedback Doug H.
@James Steele
I know you have a lot of expertise with the lower back. Do you ever deadlift to failure?
Thanks,
Marc
@Marc,
I no longer suggest people deadlift to failure which was something I used to do myself. I ran into too many injuries taking deadlifts to failure, most of them SI based (and ego driven).
The deadlift is a bit of an anomaly in my training as I don’t use it as an ‘exercise’ per se. Instead I treat it as skill practice that happens to come with a pretty hefty exercise effect to the hip extensors.
The deadlift is not what I would call a ‘lower back’ exercise. In fact for most it apparently offers little to no stimulation for strength gains in the lumbar extensors when tested in isolation as research by my colleague James Fisher (currently in press) has shown. This appears to be the case for almost all trunk extension based exercises. However, I have witnessed some to have gains in the lumbar extensors from performing deadlifts and also exercise on an unrestrained ‘lower back’ machine. These people probably constitute <5% of those I have tested. Whether they would have got greater gains training using a lumbar extension machine I cannot say for sure but I can speculate their gains would have been greater. I think there may some interindividual differences in lumbar spine anatomy (muscular attachements and in a very small % of the population an additional lumbar vertebrae) that allow greater loading of the lumbar extensors through trunk extension movements. For the most of us however our bodies have evolved to favour the hip extensors and the lower back appears to be a proverbial ‘weak link’ quite literally and very difficult to train optimally.
June 29, 2012
1. MedX Leg Extension
2. MedX Leg Curl
3. MedX Overhead Press
4. MedX Compound Row
5. MedX Seated Dip
6. MedX Biceps
3 rest-pause reps each were done for Overhead Press, Compound Row and Biceps.
@James Steele II
I have a question regarding ROM for the MedX Lumbar Extension (exercise version). When using more than a certain resistance (greater than approximately 280 lbs), I induce lower back pain by training trough the full ROM. My discs just do not seem to like the exaggerated flexion. When I either pin the stack out or just go to the nr. 2 setting (of 3), I do not experience any negative effects. Do you always recommend training from full flexion to extension and if yes, would you recommend to stay above the “negative after-effect threshold” resistance?
@Michael J
I actually favour a limited ROM during lumbar extension exercise using the MedX. The study I have just completed and am currently looking to publish has shown that strength improvements are similar at any point in the ROM when training with either a full ROM or a limited ROM (the mid 50%). Pain and disability outcomes where the same also.
As the outcomes are both similar whether training either way I favour a limited ROM based on some of BilL DeSimone’s ideas. In fact there is some research showing that as fatigue sets in the disc move closer to their threshold for mechanical injury in positions of greater flexion. Also for those with LBP pain can intensify significantly in either end range flexion or extension, so shaving 25% of either end of the ROM avoids both those positions during exercise.
I’ve not used the exercise version of the lumbar extension unfortunately so I’m not sure how the ROM setting works on it. With the medical version you can adjust the ROM setting at 3degree intervals through the 72degrees allowed. If thats not possible on the exercise version I would go ahead and just avoid full flexion. If it causes no any pain or additional pain in full extension then just don’t extend to that point. However if its fine then my thoughts are that full extension may not be as bad as in that position you are likely allowing a greater effort and recruitment to come from the intersegmental musculature.
Thanks you for your quick answer. I’ve always wondered whether maximum-possible ROM is really necessary for the lumbar extensors since it is not necessary for most other muscles as far as I understand it. Arthur Jones however saw it quite differently, as he stated repeatedly that full ROM training would be necessary, at least for the quadriceps muscles and the lumbar extensors, since these were the only muscles he could test at that time. He (and his co-workers) also made clear their opinion that the lumbar extensors need less frequent exercise than other muscles, based on their testing. One tends to wonder if that is really true or if other muscles would test the same since no one seemed to bother to do research for answering such questions after AJ left the stage in 1997.
@Michael J
No worries.
Alot of Arthurs thoughts were spot on and way ahead of his time (most recently his ideas of strength training and cardiovascular fitness). Others however have been found wanting, which is fine and the point of science.
I think the point he made about frequency is farily well supported yet more poignant for those with LBP. Most of the population will get LBP at some point and my opinion is that it is due to the weakness of the lumbar extensors and the difficulty of strengthening them. Thus those with LBP generally have more severe deconditioning that the general population, but many of the general population do have deconditioning present but have just been lucky enough to have not begun to suffer. Thus a reduced frequency likely helps avoid overtraining. Most of my participants do very well once a week, and my supervisors work has tested the general MedX guidelines of 1 heavy session vs 1 heavy + 1 light session per week finding the additional session to be unnecessary (whether an addtional heavy session would be beneficial is not known - search “Bruce-low et al., 2012 - One lumbar extension training session per week is sufficient for strength gains and reductions in pain in patients with chronic low back pain ergonomics”). However those who have been training for a longer period of time I find generally do very well with a reduced frequency of once every two weeks and still make gains. I personally train once a month on the lumbar extension and continue to make gains albeit slowly as I’ve now trained on it for about 4 years.
@ James,
Regarding the stress issue ,I’ll say it depends.If the stress of the client is a recent one and he/she doesn’t feel like being runover by a truck and is also able to concentrate on the exercises,I will let them go to failure with the previous resistance(even a slight increase if that was planned ahead anyway).Concentrating on the exercises clears the head and keeps the attention away from the stressfactor Further ,stress is stress and so the physical reaction by fight or flight state .This is best to be worked off , do the expected muscular work so there will be a built off of the stress hormones and the head will be more clear .This way our big brain is in a better state to deal with the stress inducer , that is what we are supposed to do and is part of life.If the client has this stress situation for a longer period and can’t deal with it and this has a effect on the person so he can’t concentrate or feels really tired ,I will advice not to workout but to do a activity that makes them relaxed but not tired.Walking outside comes to my mind-fresh air , sunlight and movement.Personal issue’s should be talked about with clients and thus it is a good idea to included some time for it after a workout.Not long but just enough to let the client feel there is a interest in him(in the end all to serve progression). This way we can gather information about him and thus if there are problems make a better judgement how to proceed with exercise when he comes for the next workout.Yep ,it all about service and honest interest in clients.
Regarding the medical lowback and rom Iagree with you.By the time my resistance increased remarkable the rom was limited by the therapist,and I had no major issue’s.Btw some time ago(could be a year) we changed some ideas regarding the degree of fixation .This was on the dreamlounge site.I stated that I felt ’strange’when the lockup was really tight and that this influenced my performance negatively.There was no hip movement when the system wasn’t that tight and the weight was increasing.After our exchange of ideas I started to let them lock me up really tight (I mean reallt tight)in the machine.Well , resistance had to be reduced but the effect on the lowerback was remarkable.Workouts on this machine are done once every 3 weeks for about 60 seconds.Takes me 20 minutes to get to the facility.
ad
@James
Thank you for your response on the deadlift.
What lower back exercises do you recommend for people who don’t have access to the MedX?
Thanks again,
Marc
Hi,
Bit off topic from you guy’s. Does anyone know Mike Mentzers workout routine when he was in his prime?
Cheers
Jon
Amy’s WOW:
MedX avenger pulldown
Nautilus leverage bench press
Nautilus 2ST low back
Nautilus pullover w/Ken Kesey cam
Nautilus overhead press
My own WOW is loaded and set for tomorrow a.m.(probably around 2 or 3 o’clock).
Hey all,
I just wanted to throw this out there.. It would be great to get a body by science app going..
i am using one now called project samson to track my WOWs but its a little buggy and I think a BxS app that was specifically designed for the protocol would be ace.
my two cents.
cheers!
3:00 a.m. WOW:
weighted chin ups
-breakdown-
weighted chin ups w/ less weight
Hammer leg press
MedX Avenger overhead press straight to:
top range dips