Tue 1 May 2012
W.O.W. 4/29/12- Studies are Like Fortune Cookies
Posted by Doug McGuff under Uncategorized
I took 9 days off between workouts to allow extra recovery from a heavy load of ER shifts. I did the following WOW on Sunday morning with the kids “supervising”.
MedX Chest Press (followed by manual neck flexion sitting in the chest press)
Neck Extension on SS Neck Machine, directly to Lumbar Extension on SS Pulldown
MedX Leg Press (with strict lower turnaround and end-stop technique)
Nautilus Pullover (with SS retrofits)
MedX Row (with SS fall-off cam)
This was a great workout, largely due to the recovery interval. The days after have been good as well. Last Night Wendy and I saw The 5 Year Engagement. It was a funny movie, but with serious undertones. The female lead in the movie is a psychology grad student who has to move away to Michigan, dragging her fiance along with her. There was a scene that really struck me with regard to the value of many studies. In the scene, a professor and a group of grad students are brainstorming ideas for a study to secure NIH funding. Some of the scenarios are made up in order to fake out our female lead, but in the process of the leg-pulling, she comes up with a study idea that ends up getting NIH funding and becomes her doctoral thesis. At one point in the movie, she even uses her ridiculous thesis as a measure of her fiance’s suitability. In reality, the premise of her study was probably no better than reading a fortune cookie (my interpretation, not the movie’s). As John and I plowed through the numerous studies that would ultimately make up BBS (or be discarded), I kept thinking about the old joke about fortune cookies that says, whenever you read your fortune out of a fortune cookie you should always add the phrase “in bed” at the end. As I read the conclusions of all of these studies, I had to keep reminding myself that these studies needed an ending like a fortune cookie. However, instead of adding “in bed” I thought you should add “for the first 12 weeks”.
When we try to devise training strategies to use over a lifetime, and try to gain guidance from the literature, we must remember that most of these studies are carried out in untrained subjects and for a 12 week study period. If you really want to know how to optimize things over a lifetime of training, look to the posters on this blog for guidance at least as much as you do PubMed.
WOW:
-Nitro Adductin
-SSS Leg Curl
-Nitro Leg Press
-Nitro Compound Row
-Med-X Chest Press
-Nitro Pullover
-Nitro Bicep
BONUS:
-ARX Negative-Only Bench Press
-ARX Negative-Only Chinup
-Negative-Only Chinup
Mark came down and thrashed me good today. If anyone reads my blog I’ve since moved my training back down to once per week with slightly truncated TUL’s to emphasize mTOR activity. Had some great carpet time after I was finished with a lingering pump effect. Awesome!
Great advice. This site is a great source of the ongoing research that is being done in the one on one studios around the world
My WOW
Nautilus 2st Low Back
Medx Leg Press
Medx Torso Arm Pulldown
Medx Chest Press
Nautilus Abdominal
Neck Extension Isometric
Great Workout after a day at a ‘Wellness Fair’surronded by Zumba , Yoga and I can’t even begin to tell you what else. Just when I thought I had seen it all.
@ John Little
What is the longest amount of time that you have personally seen for a lean gain to show up while using the Boppod? I have heard that fast twitch gycolytic fibers take the longest to recover, sometimes up to 6 weeks, but I was just wondering what you have discovered in your training business. I did a Max Pyramid workout 17 days ago and my legs still feel pretty tired. I have heard the terms inroad and outroad, and think that I may have experienced the latter. Just curious…
Thanks,
Brian
@ Skyler
A couple of post’s ago you mentioned cold, not ice, baths to help in relaxation, which can help in this whole process of improving our quality of life.(I was the guy who had the inapropriate cryogenics comment). What was the fellows name who you mentioned as the proponent of the cold baths?
@Brian,
His name is Ray Cronise and a lot of his information in this post:
freetheanimal.com/2012/04/cold-therapy-and-adaptation-and-ray-cronise.html
He also made a note somewhere in the gajillion comments that he’d rather see people swim in cool water than soak in cold water. I appreciate his conservatism.
I am still doing my slow reps without timing them, so there is nothing new to report there.
I don’t want to put links in my post, since, in the past, they have prevented the post from being published. But if you google Alfredson and Jonsson, you can find journal articles showing that TWELVE WEEKS of doing 3 sets of 15 eccentric reps twice daily, can heal intractable tendon injuries.
I injured my right foot in February. I have self-diagnosed as insertional Achilles tendinopathy. Since April 1, I have been doing weighted heel drops, 3×15, twice daily. For medial Achilles tendinopathy (middle of tendon), the heel should go down below level. For insertional tendinopathy (at the heel), which I have, dorsiflexion prevents healing, meaning that the heel should not go below level.
I am using a weighted backpack at work and at home.
Alfredson reportedly discovered this when he had tendon pain and tried to rupture his tendon so he could get it surgically repaired. Instead he was completely healed.
Now there are no studies on what would happen if you only did this once a week. But Jonsson and Alfredson have extended their research to tendons other than Achilles and the connection between eccentric exercise and tendon healing seems to hold.
I am doing my heel drops as slowly as I can. I would rather minimize the weight I use on my back since it is bulky, awkward, and has caused some pain.
This suggests that there might be some specific reasons (rehabilitation) for more frequent exercise.
I am not following their protocol exactly, because I am still engaging in the activity that caused my initial injury (tennis) on weekends.
“This suggests that there might be some specific reasons (rehabilitation) for more frequent exercise.”
True. Rehab is a different animal, however, and the eccentric exercises you are talking about are done somewhere at the beginning stages of an achilles (and other)tendon strengthening rehab program and are certainly not done in the king of high intensity fashion espoused here (higher load and to failure). Intensity of effort determines volume and frequency of exercise and can be different, to some degree, from individual to individual. A rehab exercise done for 3×15 and three times per week is not unusual and not excessive when load and effort remain relatively low (which they have to be at the beginning stages of rehab).
Hi,
I agree with doug’s post and add that the write or die culture is a reason why there are so many studies and it leads to a (internet)information overload .Understanding and accepting the fundamentals of exercise,that the human body doesn’t change ,that there are factors that limits the achieveable(and that the genetic one’s are not or less limited by this, e.g myostatin)etc.can help one to become immune for the conclusions of the many studies.The writings of doug and john ,this site and its contributers are a major help in keeping the context and perspective.We can micro manage a few things to optimalize progress per person but that is a extension from the fundamentals and not a complete different approach regarding exercise .Switching from one method to the other based on ’studies’keeps the industry alive without much results for most clients.But they will keep searching for the gold and emotionally based decide to start all over again .Most of them just never be the clients of facilities where a HIT/BBS approach will be teached.That would require the effort of thought and facing facts . Not for everyone .
ad
Moises,
I tried the eccentrics for my own achilles problems and they worked really well for me. I’ve heard reports that they work well for elbow tendonitis as well.
David
Moises,
I tried the eccentrics for my own achilles problems and they worked really well for me. I’ve heard reports that they work well for elbow tendonitis as well.
David
@Skyler,
I curious about this comment:
“I’ve since moved my training back down to once per week with slightly truncated TUL’s to emphasize mTOR activity.”
I paged through your blog quickly and didn’t see anything directly about this in your recent posts (I certainly may have missed it though). What is your reasoning behind reduced frequency and increased mTOR? Maybe just direction to the right post on your blog will suffice?
Thanks!!
@ Thomas,
They’re not directly related. I’ve just reduced my workout to a weekly thrashing AND my TUL’s are in the 50-1:10 range. Sufficient load without sacrificing form.
I did enjoy some carpet time yesterday, just a couple minutes, ha!
Thanks Skyler. How are you liking the once weekly workouts? I keep saying I’m going to try it but usually get in 2 and sometimes 3 per week.
@Thomas
Feeling like a million bucks, mentally and physically. Looking forward to what the bodpod says in a few months time.
Hi Skyler
Do you feel that “carpet time” is more beneficial than 2 workouts a week/sets taken to momentary failure (break in form/no carpet time)?As a trainer,do you feel that this practice could “scare away” potential clients? I respect your opinion and I just want to understand why one would want to take their workouts to such an extreme even it is infrequently.
Be Well
Terry
Terry,
Carpet time is neither necessary nor desirable but is sometimes a by product of hard work. In other words I don’t start my workout by saying, “I want to be so exhausted that I have to lie down in front of a fan after my workout” but sometimes the stars align and I end up knackered in front of an air mover.
So as far as 1x week vs. 2x week I cannot say. I have plenty of bodpod data on myself from 2x week of HIT-ish training not driving up my muscle tissue so this is an extension of that experiment to a certain extent. I’ll know if it’s more beneficial (n=1) in a few months time when I go and get another bodycomp test.
As far as freaking clients out, I don’t because when I train there are no clients here to freak out nor am I broadcasting that ending up in front of a fan is a badge of honor. I do explain to new clients that I’m going to teach them to work as hard as their disposition allows; for some people that means queasy on the floor while for others that means mildly winded and physically extended but not exhausted.
I hope that better explains and please let me know if you have more questions.
Best,
Skyler
@Skyler,
So it seems you are undertaking a workout frequency experiment. I’m very interested in seeing how this works out for you. It’s great that you have a BodPod to measure progress.
Also, having you been trying to maintain a calorie surplus? I know that if I don’t eat more I don’t gain, period. But I also know that I can out-eat my muscle gaining capacity so I have to be careful and be very conscious about intake.
WOW - 1st May: Back & Biceps
Bent Over Row
Lumbar Extension (static hold with weight)
Pull Ups
Reverse Flys (static hold)
Bicep Curls
Bent Over Row
I did interval sprints the day before this session (6×15sec sprints x 2) and a 1hr soccer game the day after.
I’m upping my activity - still doing HIT every 5 days and leaving 10 days to recover for each muscle group but adding the extra sprinting session/soccer game here and there. I don’t think this will make me particularly stronger, maybe my legs and core, but simply want to shed more fat before the summer months.
WOW:
nautilus 2st legpress
OME pullup ultimate rep
nautilus next gen. shoulder press
nautilus 2st necl ext./flx.
As I mentioned a few weeks ago I’m in the proces of slowly getting leaner .I only go by looks and waist circumference .Today ,before the workout and fasted I looked fuller while my waist was reduced to 80 cm (measured just above crista iliaca).
ad
Great WOWs the last two weeks with Ed G. at UE.
The focus recently has been on good form and slow lower turnarounds. We’ve used a bit less weight, but with no drop in intensity.
This week:
MedX Abs (slow lower turn and squeeze at max crunch)
MedX Overhead press (slow lower turn and squeeze at top)
MedX Compound Row (slow lower turn and pinch/squeeze at top)
MedX Chest Press (slow lower and Doug McGuff yoga block squeeze)
SS Pulldown with squeezes at end
MedX Leg Press (slow lower turn and end stop squeeze)
For what it is worth, I ended up catching some carpet time after this WOW (which Ed thankfully documented on his phone’s camera). I don’t always end up on the floor, and like Skyler, I certainly don’t hold that as an explicit goal. I definitely aim to put in maximum effort every week, but some weeks that produces enough fatigue that I have to recover in a horizontal position.
Today’s WOW, with the combined effect of the various back work movements/squeezes and the end stop squeezes on the leg press, really gave my whole posterior chain some good work. I’m just glad I already mowed the lawn and did yard work yesterday!
@Thomas
I’m just adding a 1/2 gallon of milk on my workout day; otherwise I’m eating to satiety, not trying to overeat or put on the brakes when it comes to food. Basically how I’ve been eating and maintaining my body fat for 8 months plus the big bolus of milk on training days.
@ moises: How did you determine it was insertional, rather than medial?
I’ve had trouble with achilles tendon pain recently (it’s an old friend, come back for another visit). I had seen the articles you referenced, and tried doing the stretching with dorsiflexion. Initially thought it was helping, but in the end seemed to be making things worse. So now I wonder if I might have the insertional kind. However, I have read that it can be difficult to distinguish between the two, and that they can co-exist.
On the MedX Chest Press, I have been varying the grip from the vertical close grip to the more horizontal position.
Sure enough, with the horizontal grip I can bear more weight.
May someone please explain to me from an anatomical point of view why going for the horizontal grip is easier? Which part of the pectoralis is being addressed the most?
Appreciate it very much.
Regards from Germany
@Skyler,
I think you’re very smart to take in your extra calories as a “supplement” (on training days) to a regular diet. I’ve become convinced that for weight/muscle gain, eating at weight maintenance or slightly under (assuming you are already lean) and then adding a distinct supplemental calorie source, to bring them up over your maintenance level a bit, is the best way to go. That way you don’t get caught up in the “eat everything that moves” bulking strategy that makes most people fat and is hard to pull back from. Keeping it to training days also seems smart as you can add a day or two if you have to.
@Thomas
I agree and good points. I’ve been ~13% body fat for the last 8 months, really a year, without counting and just eating as I feel like within a paleo paradigm. That level of body fat is enough to where if I’m eating enough calories to support this level of fatness I’m eating enough to support muscle gain. If I was in the high single digit body fat range I could see the “see food” diet being a permissive route to any gains but I’m not.
I was reading over the Wendler 5/3/1 training system the other day (a popular strength/powerlifitng system)and was struck by how easy that system can be incorporated into a HIT program. The only real non-HIT part of his system is the assistance exercise recommendations, where Wendler advocates doing stuff like 5 sets of 10. But the core exercise protocol (the 5/5/5, 3/3/3 and 5/3/1 part) for deadlifts, benches, standing press and squats fit HIT very well; the fist two sets are essentially warm ups and the last set is an “all out” set, taken just short of failure, which isn’t a bad idea when doing these types of core free weight exercises (for example, watch Doug Holland doing deadlifts-he makes every rep). The rest of the “assistance” stuff can easily be done typical HIT/slow/controlled style.
Another difference is the periodized schedule, but as long as the last set is always an all out effort (doing as many reps as possible with good form) this really doesn’t violate HIT principals IMO.
Terry,
If you don’t go failure each workout and you’ll plan all well, you can training yourself even 3x weeks
Skyler
Thanks for your response. You addressed all my questions. I must admit, every time I here the term “carpet time”, I think of the description of the “alpha trainee”, Juan, in the Superslow Manual. I always wondered if this was a beneficial response?? I make no judgements, I just consider myself a “Seeker” when it comes to exercise knowledge. Thanks again!
Be Well
Terry
RE: end stop squeeze
When you don’t do the end stop squeeze on the leg press, with the same weight, the TUL goes down. Is this technique providing the muscles with a chance to recover (less intensity) when you employ it? Any thoughts?
John
Like many people on this site one of the reasons I train is because I actually enjoy the huge challenge of HIT BBS. This sometimes lmotivates me to workout twice in a week. I may curtail this now due to the following experience;
I have just returned from another long haul trip having trained before I left UK on 5th April. Usually I would train again about 5 days to one week later, however because of the flight this was put back. Unfortunately I caught a nasty long haul cold which meant no training until 23rd April, a rest of 18 days. I did only one more BBS day before returning home . This netted out to only 2 workouts in a month. Whilst away diet was mostly protein based, fish chicken eggs a little rice, a few tomatoes peanuts, cashew nuts few light beers but really I did n’t worry too much about it, particularly when I was sick. I have n’t yet had a chance to test my strength on my regular equipment, but my bf monitor says I weigh the same as before I left and have dropped 2% fat. A bit subjective I know but my brother also thinks I have gained a little lean.
Again I am reminded of Doug H’s once a month DL and that this frequency thing is probably one of the most significant factors each individual must get right in order to optimise results.
As usual whilst away I just had my push up handles and rope. Exercises were b/w squat performed a La Drew Baye, 1 set very intense, push ups J rep style finishing with SC, body weight row with the rope 1 set to failure, and infimetric lateral raise.
To continue this experiment I now just need to cultivate a reverse motivation, i.e. to NOT train
started taking BCAA’s, doesn’t seem to help much with DOMS, however, I am very happy to be seeing significant weight gains. Looking at my records, I’m up a good 5 lbs. in less than a year, and still quite lean (less than 10% bf according to a recent measurement). Could be coincidence that gains really started when I started the BCAA’s, I’m almost 32 and could be that my body has just decided to start gaining for whatever reason. nice to know that gains are in fact possible with a HIT/paleo diet approach, though.
@Terry
I’ve had a few “Juan”-type trainees in my years of training and I’m not sure that the ability to end up twitchy on the carpet every time gasping for breath is a sign of an “Alpha” trainee. I think it my have more to do with ventilation than inroad.
When I teach a client how to breath, I attempt to sum it up by “your breathing matches your effort.” So in that I mean at the start of the workout and exercise the ventilation is relatively light, only increasing during the positive phase (because the negative is easier). By the end of the set ventilation is up considerably but still more on the concentric, less on the eccentric. Attack and release, if you will.
These Juan-types, in my experience, go crazy with the breathing out of the gate, hyperventilating from the first second and end up not consuming enough oxygen. The body takes ~ twice as long to saturate the pulmonary capillaries with oxygen than it does to desaturate them of CO2. You need those deeper breaths to start and the deeper (relatively speaking) breaths on the negative to ensure sufficient oxygen saturation in an environment of increasing demand.
@ David,
It’s good to hear from someone who had real experience with the heel drops. And yes, I think it is very exciting that it works as well in the elbow, knee, and shoulder. The microbiology is fascinating to me. If you look at slides of pathological tendons, the cells are all disordered. Once they regain health, the cells are in nice, neat, straight lines.
—————-
Craig wrote: “How did you determine it was insertional, rather than medial?”
The distinction is relatively straightforward. You can use your fingers to palpate (touch) your heel bone (calcaneous). If your injury is at the insertion point, you should feel tenderness and sensitivity to pain by pressing your flesh into the bone. This might occur at the back of the foot, or an inch or so to either side.
If your injury is at the medial point, the injury should be on the tendon, an inch or more above the upper end of the heel bone.
Hope that helps.
For Shaun
Whole heartedly agree this forum is a great resource. I have seen my workouts (which had pretty much stalled) and my understanding of the mechanism behind them improve in a way I didn’t think possibly at my age.
Also, WRT frequency, I don’t its surprising that really fit individuals such as those commenting would feel the desire to workout more often that is probably is neccessary or ideal given that that is the activity that has made that way in the first place.
Shaun
WOW 5th May 2012
I woke up today at 5am with a hangover. Let’s just say that last night I had more than I should of food and drink
At 8am after some serious rehydration I felt good enough to go to the gym. I started with low weights because I wasn’t feeling strong enough. After 10minutes or so I started to feel energised as if the excess calories from the night before were now fuelling my workout. I ended up doing a 45 minute workout and I increased the load on my Big 3 exercises
Smith overhead press
Smith squat
Hammer horizontal bench press
Hammer high row
Assisted dips and chins
Life fitness leg press
15minutes on the treadmill (this is when my energy started to come back)
Hammer Incline press 210 lbs
Hammer high row 220 lbs
Life fitness leg press 253lbs
I finished with some deadlifts 150lbs
Skyler
interesting point about ventilation, thanks again for your informative replys.
Be Well
Terry
@Brian, at present, the longest I’ve seen for a lean gain to manifest has been 25 days. I’ll have to go through my notes but conducted an informal study (perhaps observation would be more accurate) on a client that had participated in our original Nautilus North Study. Back then his day of peak lean was Day 10. Several years later he wanted to see if it was still at this point — and it wasn’t. He was now a little older (though still in his thirties) and we tried various protocols and then he came in daily to have his composition checked. No matter what the protocol (not-to-failure, positive failure, negative-only, etc.), he was still in the two to three week period before a gain was produced. Evidently as he had grown stronger he had built a bigger engine, so to speak, which went through a greater amount of fuel (in this case glycogen) and it simply took longer for him to refill his tank and a little longer again for any form of supra compensation to take place. Now this was a study of one, I would presume that others might have different responses (some sooner, some later for the peak lean to show up).
Compound Row
Chest press
leg curl
leg press
workout time 7:02.
John Little
Interesting stuff, and pretty much confirms my belief that thanks to you, Doug McGuff and perhaps a handful of other enquiring minds including your late friend Mike Mentzer we now have plenty of the right kind of effective exercise protocols.
But the frequency issue is intriguing, I am wondering what is your own current frequency and or are you conducting any further related studies?
WOW No. 84 - 02 May 2012
Male, age 34, 5′9″, 136 lbs.
Fasted state (previous meal ended ~11hrs prior)
12 days since last WOW
Db Row 110#/90/50
Chest Press 155#/125/75
45° Leg Press 295#/230/145
BW Squats
WOW duration = 12 minutes
Dr. McGuff, I’m on my 4th workout of BBS style WOWs and I’m really starting to notice that shoulder press is near impossible if I put it after Chest Press and Lat pulldowns. Then if I put it in the beginning of the workout, my chest press suffers. Could this be due to the machines I’m using not properly isolating certain muscle groups, or is this just inherent of the order of the movements?
Fasted state (146.6 lbs, 5′9″)
In order:
Chest Press
Shoulder Press
Lat pulldown
Rows
Leg Press
Can anyone guess what a good general timeframe to adhere to before starting B.B.S. after recovering from a back injury? (Muscle tear)
Hey Doug (and crew!)
How does one actually qualify to train people HIT style/ BBS style? Is there a certification and is it available outside of America? Because I live in Kenya, Africa.
I’ve been training for about 7 years on and off now and on BBS style HIT for about 8-9 months. Great site and great posters. There’s a lot to learn every week. I wish more people knew about HIT. It’s really been an eye opening experience for me.
@ John Little
Thanks for the information. It really keeps the mental wheels spinning. Maybe as technology advances there will be a way to determine down to the minute when it is best to train again.
Thanks,
Brian
WOW #1
5/7/12
Heel Raise
Seated Leg Curl
Leg Press
SAPD
Compound Row
BW Pushup
Incline Arm Curl
RE: Frequency and lean gains
Don’t take this the wrong way, but the BodPod (correct me if I am wrong in assuming this was the device used) does not “measure” body composition…it “predicts” it (as do nearly all methods of BF testing). While it may be more accurate/reliable than other methods out there, it by no means is acceptable at tracking changes over time in an individual…this is not my opinion, research has shown this.
Further, now this is my opinion, even if the lean gains were accurate, how would one know whether they are directly linked to the exercise session that preceded (10 -25 days earlier)? Now, maybe a similar period of time could be tracked sans exercise (for comparison)…and maybe the individual could attempt to ‘hold’ as many other variables as possible…but this still doesn’t isolate exercise as the stimulus for adaptation. In addition, (if the gain were related to the exercise) a completely different manipulation of the ‘other’ variables could yield a completely different time frame for adaptation.
My point in all of this is not to discredit the observation, but to reign in the expectation of a ‘perfect’ frequency being discovered (in this manner or otherwise). It is a moving target for an individual…and frankly the best ‘measure’ for determining frequency will be goal determined (performance vs. aesthetic), i.e. a person will probably obtain more valuable feedback from a mirror, the way he/she feels and changes in the ability to perform specific tasks, than the BodPod (or similar) can provide.
In my personal observation, I’ve never known someone who looked better, felt better or could perform better, training that infrequently…so, the practical application of the info (even if it were accurate) would seem highly unique and not generally acceptable…meaning technology for ‘dosing’ frequency would require constantly monitoring each individual for which its recommendations/outcomes are applied. Doesn’t seem likely for the general population.
John, realize that I only used your observation as a springboard for my tangent. I am not implying that I know the purpose or application of your observation…and it quite likely has nothing to do with my post at all.
Stephan R,
It is not so much the area of the pectoral isolated that makes the vertical grip appear weaker. You are moving the weight with a shorter lever at that position. When you use the horizontal grip, you are interfacing the movement arm in a way that involves a lever that is about 4 inches longer.
Ben,
The pressing movements use similar muscles, so whichever comes second will suffer. Make sure that you do not put them immediately back-to-back. Do a push, then a pull, then a push etc. Also, you can alternate who goes first every other workout.
Josh,
Variable, but basically when you can do so without significant pain or seriously exacerbating symptoms.
Viv,
Right now the RenEx people are gearing up for certification, but I do not know when they will be ready. Watch rennaissanceexercise.com for updates. Anyone else aware of current cert programs?
@Doug
It makes perfect sense now. I should have known better given that I study Biomedical Engineering.
Should one position be preferred over the other one or is that to one’s liking?
Stephan,
It all depends on your seat settings. I like to see the horizontal part of the handle at around nipple level and the depth to be in front of the chest. Grab the handle where the web space between your thumb and index finger sits right where the handle begins to turn toward the vertical.